Re: Mind's Eye Re: A Call To Democratic Arms?

Interesting thread. I agree with Rigs, as usual. I have no problem
with democracy as long as the voters are sane and reasonably
intelligent and self-reliant. Therefore I disagree with democracy.
Long live the Republic! But seriously, if we had a global democracy
all us advanced nations would suffer without a corresponding lift in
poorer cultures advancement. People will vote themselves
money/benefits/stuff now at the expense of future consequences. Kick
that can. Observe last USA presidential election.

'Nuff said.

dj


On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:38 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
> Coffee stains are the new physics - http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/7
>
> Allan's opinion is similar to my own - but there's a big 'but' - and
> this concerns how we could get something radically different to work.
> The usual dismissal of what many of us agree on in terms of fairness
> and decency is 'this is a dirty old world and we need to play by the
> rules of the bad guys or be swamped by them - our bad guys can't be
> hampered by rules their competitors don't face and so on'. On top of
> this the whole history of modern imperialism is written in legend.
> Unions become not defenders of worker conditions and pay but enemies
> etc.
>
> On Jan 20, 3:57 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The function of mayonnaise is to teach us about negative vacuum energy
>> Gabby! What the banksters are doing is controlling a global wage/food/
>> energy arbitrage that should be in local hands (ours). The Pirates
>> had/have something going - but even 'socialist' France has boots on
>> the ground - even if we had political revolution how would we deal
>> with the inevitable foreign policy junk when whoever represents us has
>> the military and secret services in their ears suggesting the policies
>> we want will lead to Islamic-Chinese empires that will come looking
>> for us?
>>
>> On 20 Jan, 03:30, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
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>>
>> > If I say something like 'you have never heard a true word about
>> > management development' I broadly know what I mean. Some ass might
>> > point out this is an example of the liar's paradox (presumably if you
>> > have never heard a true word on the subject that includes mine) - but
>> > I could explain my shorthand. We might walk into the scrotty pub I
>> > occasionally frequent and order 'vodka martinis, shaken not stirred' -
>> > clearly a comment on the pub not an order. Stuff like this makes
>> > programming machines difficult - though machines are getting smarter
>> > these days.
>>
>> > If we wanted to argue Allan's case we could find a lot of academic
>> > support (Bill Black is the most accessible) - from biology,
>> > anthropology, economics, history and social theory. The 'voter
>> > machine' is not programmed with this material - I struggle to think of
>> > much film, television or literature based in the science I know and
>> > our kids get to university full of myths (Crusader in the west, Jihad
>> > in the middle east - etc.). The business books I'm supposed to teach
>> > from all treat capital as neutral and demand to teach corporate fraud
>> > is very limited - some students see it as a how to module. There are
>> > questions abut how to get the voting machine to process the argument
>> > and even make the argument available.
>>
>> > On Jan 19, 10:45 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > The only way I see an honest government is strictly control in
>> > > influence of corporations and spin doctors with all of their dealings
>> > > involving government being recorded both video and audio with these
>> > > being open to public scrutiny,, not just special commissions,, Also
>> > > corporation presidents with the board of directors need to serve
>> > > prison sentences when their companies break the law,, once convicted
>> > > no longer be able to act as advisers or hold the offices of
>> > > corporations.. ending all corporations for lawyers so the can no
>> > > longer hide..
>> > > the enforcement of corporate need to be brought into effect instead of
>> > > letting them slide.
>> > > nasty huh...
>> > > Allan
>>
>> > > On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > We call ourselves democracies - the classic was perhaps the DDR (East
>> > > > Germany), famous for strange athletes, Stasi and the Trabant. But
>> > > > shouldn't we expect the Doublespeak Allan? Most of us don't really
>> > > > want to be involved in politics - it's a bit like running the coffee
>> > > > fund in a school common room. Like Gabby I tend to vote Green - but
>> > > > this is really about registering my protest that the main parties are
>> > > > now scum. We could, as Andrew suggested, have a much less
>> > > > representative politics and make more decisions ourselves. In the UK
>> > > > we should already have decentralised from London and become much more
>> > > > electronic in base. It must be very easy for 'foreign powers' to
>> > > > infiltrate our main political parties and they are all stacked out
>> > > > with highly suspicious suit horses. There has long been no one for me
>> > > > to vote for. We need revolutionary ideas about the system and I don't
>> > > > mean bombs, capes, dubious mustaches and a "temporary" dictatorship of
>> > > > the proles. This is why I think radical change in our understanding
>> > > > and then technology of argument might help. You astutely note we
>> > > > don't have any real democracies - but were earlier clinging to the
>> > > > notion of voting involving argument - I'm saying that ain't 'real'
>> > > > either.
>>
>> > > > On 19 Jan, 07:52, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> I don't see how you can call any government a democracy .. the USA is
>> > > >> a republic and I do not see how you can call any government when
>> > > >> leadership keep palling around with the wealth chasing the golden
>> > > >> calf.
>> > > >> Allan
>>
>> > > >> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:21 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> > Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed in
>> > > >> > calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns appear
>> > > >> > in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do. I don't have
>> > > >> > much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to
>> > > >> > Mars. They are increasingly used to have information first, perhaps
>> > > >> > like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home in
>> > > >> > order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still
>> > > >> > high before its goods are docked. I doubt the entire use of the
>> > > >> > technology in economics. In some areas of science we are not sure
>> > > >> > what the computers are telling us and they appear to be "thinking".I
>> > > >> > have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - though
>> > > >> > few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design
>> > > >> > useful reporting from them.
>> > > >> > Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew drives
>> > > >> > in another. Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness. The
>> > > >> > vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in
>> > > >> > philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my
>> > > >> > poison. I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely
>> > > >> > incompatible due to definition. Chemists could no doubt produce a
>> > > >> > solution with both oil and vinegar in it. Wiles' solution to Fermat's
>> > > >> > last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and
>> > > >> > Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older and
>> > > >> > modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway).
>>
>> > > >> > The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad
>> > > >> > state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our very
>> > > >> > peculiar voting systems. If we had an "argument machine" we might be
>> > > >> > able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, Hindi/
>> > > >> > Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all
>> > > >> > sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the more
>> > > >> > positive ones. I may even share (something like) Gabby's
>> > > >> > 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n both
>> > > >> > sides would be long.
>>
>> > > >> > This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering
>> > > >> > 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East
>> > > >> > Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such blandishments
>> > > >> > with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 and
>> > > >> > what such a society would be. We need to know more about what buttons
>> > > >> > the likes of Blair and adverts push. I suspect part of the answer
>> > > >> > would be the creation of technology to support a level playing field -
>> > > >> > but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war
>> > > >> > (it's a bit like Jung's dream).
>>
>> > > >> > On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> >> Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - hate
>> > > >> >> them both! I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" and
>> > > >> >> would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the majority
>> > > >> >> of it is. When asked most people say they vote on the economy - when
>> > > >> >> further asked what the economy is they are clueless. One of us at
>> > > >> >> least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and our
>> > > >> >> 'freedom through world domination' scheme.
>>
>> > > >> >> On Jan 18, 3:46 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > >> >> > Faith and reason, like vinegar and oil (my favorite salad dressing) ,go
>> > > >> >> > together and complement each other really well. Like the bible teaches, the
>> > > >> >> > knowledge of good and evil or technology is a double edged sword. You can
>> > > >> >> > not have one without the other. Like playing with matches, it is not
>> > > >> >> > recommended for children. As for teaching morals, I do not think it can be
>> > > >> >> > taught by teachers. Education and democracy if used morally can and does
>> > > >> >> > fill empty bellies.I agree with you Rigs about democracy. Democracy as we
>> > > >> >> > have it in all democratic countries (except Switzerland) lasts only for a
>> > > >> >> > day every 4 or 5 years when we elect representatives with meaningless
>> > > >> >> > promises to represent us.
>>
>> > > >> >> > On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54:01 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>>
>> > > >> >> > > Faith and Reason are like vinegar and oil. The Enlightenment has
>> > > >> >> > > brought us hence- the new Dark Ages? Technology is not a solution
>> > > >> >> > > because it can be corrupted. I have much in common with a Roman matron
>> > > >> >> > > of the 4th C. as I watch/read of the new barbarians. My modern
>> > > >> >> > > conveniences are simply mechanical slaves. It does little good to
>> > > >> >> > > teach ethics/morals when other parts of our supposed united world are
>> > > >> >> > > not in sync. Education/democracy will not fill an empty belly or
>> > > >> >> > > replenish wasted croplands and raw materials. Throwing money at
>> > > >> >> > > unstable countries will not rescue us or them
>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »
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