Re: Mind's Eye Re: A Call To Democratic Arms?

If I say something like 'you have never heard a true word about
management development' I broadly know what I mean. Some ass might
point out this is an example of the liar's paradox (presumably if you
have never heard a true word on the subject that includes mine) - but
I could explain my shorthand. We might walk into the scrotty pub I
occasionally frequent and order 'vodka martinis, shaken not stirred' -
clearly a comment on the pub not an order. Stuff like this makes
programming machines difficult - though machines are getting smarter
these days.

If we wanted to argue Allan's case we could find a lot of academic
support (Bill Black is the most accessible) - from biology,
anthropology, economics, history and social theory. The 'voter
machine' is not programmed with this material - I struggle to think of
much film, television or literature based in the science I know and
our kids get to university full of myths (Crusader in the west, Jihad
in the middle east - etc.). The business books I'm supposed to teach
from all treat capital as neutral and demand to teach corporate fraud
is very limited - some students see it as a how to module. There are
questions abut how to get the voting machine to process the argument
and even make the argument available.

On Jan 19, 10:45 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The only way I see an honest government is strictly control in
> influence of corporations and spin doctors with all of their dealings
> involving government being recorded both video and audio with these
> being open to public scrutiny,, not just special commissions,,  Also
> corporation presidents with the board of directors need to serve
> prison sentences when their companies break the law,, once convicted
> no longer be able to act as advisers or hold the offices of
> corporations.. ending all corporations for lawyers so the can no
> longer hide..
> the enforcement of corporate need to be brought into effect instead of
> letting them slide.
> nasty huh...
> Allan
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> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We call ourselves democracies - the classic was perhaps the DDR (East
> > Germany), famous for strange athletes, Stasi and the Trabant.  But
> > shouldn't we expect the Doublespeak Allan?  Most of us don't really
> > want to be involved in politics - it's a bit like running the coffee
> > fund in a school common room.  Like Gabby I tend to vote Green - but
> > this is really about registering my protest that the main parties are
> > now scum.  We could, as Andrew suggested, have a much less
> > representative politics and make more decisions ourselves.  In the UK
> > we should already have decentralised from London and become much more
> > electronic in base.  It must be very easy for 'foreign powers' to
> > infiltrate our main political parties and they are all stacked out
> > with highly suspicious suit horses.  There has long been no one for me
> > to vote for.  We need revolutionary ideas about the system and I don't
> > mean bombs, capes, dubious mustaches and a "temporary" dictatorship of
> > the proles.  This is why I think radical change in our understanding
> > and then technology of argument might help.  You astutely note we
> > don't have any real democracies - but were earlier clinging to the
> > notion of voting involving argument - I'm saying that ain't 'real'
> > either.
>
> > On 19 Jan, 07:52, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I don't see how you can call any government a democracy .. the USA is
> >> a republic   and I do not see how you can call any government when
> >> leadership keep palling around with the wealth chasing the golden
> >> calf.
> >> Allan
>
> >> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:21 AM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed in
> >> > calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns appear
> >> > in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do.  I don't have
> >> > much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to
> >> > Mars.  They are increasingly used to have information first, perhaps
> >> > like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home in
> >> > order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still
> >> > high before its goods are docked.  I doubt the entire use of the
> >> > technology in economics.  In some areas of science we are not sure
> >> > what the computers are telling us and they appear to be "thinking".I
> >> > have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - though
> >> > few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design
> >> > useful reporting from them.
> >> > Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew drives
> >> > in another.  Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness.  The
> >> > vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in
> >> > philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my
> >> > poison.  I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely
> >> > incompatible due to definition.  Chemists could no doubt produce a
> >> > solution with both oil and vinegar in it.  Wiles' solution to Fermat's
> >> > last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and
> >> > Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older and
> >> > modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway).
>
> >> > The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad
> >> > state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our very
> >> > peculiar voting systems.  If we had an "argument machine" we might be
> >> > able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, Hindi/
> >> > Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all
> >> > sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the more
> >> > positive ones.  I may even share (something like) Gabby's
> >> > 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n both
> >> > sides would be long.
>
> >> > This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering
> >> > 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East
> >> > Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such blandishments
> >> > with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 and
> >> > what such a society would be.  We need to know more about what buttons
> >> > the likes of Blair and adverts push.  I suspect part of the answer
> >> > would be the creation of technology to support a level playing field -
> >> > but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war
> >> > (it's a bit like Jung's dream).
>
> >> > On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - hate
> >> >> them both!  I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" and
> >> >> would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the majority
> >> >> of it is.  When asked most people say they vote on the economy - when
> >> >> further asked what the economy is they are clueless.  One of us at
> >> >> least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and our
> >> >> 'freedom through world domination' scheme.
>
> >> >> On Jan 18, 3:46 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > Faith and reason, like vinegar and oil (my favorite salad dressing) ,go
> >> >> > together and complement each other really well. Like the bible teaches, the
> >> >> > knowledge of good and evil or technology is a double edged sword. You can
> >> >> > not have one without the other. Like playing with matches, it is not
> >> >> > recommended for children. As for teaching morals, I do not think it can be
> >> >> > taught by teachers. Education and democracy if used morally can and does
> >> >> > fill empty bellies.I agree with you Rigs about democracy. Democracy as we
> >> >> > have it in all democratic countries (except Switzerland) lasts only for a
> >> >> > day every 4 or 5 years when we elect representatives with meaningless
> >> >> > promises to represent us.
>
> >> >> > On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54:01 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> >> >> > > Faith and Reason are like vinegar and oil. The Enlightenment has
> >> >> > > brought us hence- the new Dark Ages? Technology is not a solution
> >> >> > > because it can be corrupted. I have much in common with a Roman matron
> >> >> > > of the 4th C. as I watch/read of the new barbarians. My modern
> >> >> > > conveniences are simply mechanical slaves. It does little good to
> >> >> > > teach ethics/morals when other parts of our supposed united world are
> >> >> > > not in sync. Education/democracy will not fill an empty belly or
> >> >> > > replenish wasted croplands and raw materials. Throwing money at
> >> >> > > unstable countries will not rescue us or them (Egypt) nor will
> >> >> > > allowing disasters to take their course win us friends (Syria).
> >> >> > > Democracy has become a bloated centralized authority so the political
> >> >> > > differences are meaningless. The patterns of human history have
> >> >> > > changed very little, unfortunately- it still remains about greed,
> >> >> > > power and hubris.
>
> >> >> > > On Jan 17, 7:59 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > > Kaggle is also up and running, apparently producing better than expert
> >> >> > > > results from data crunching.  The project, whether a Tower of Babel
> >> >> > > > confronting god or not, is underway.
>
> >> >> > > > On Jan 18, 12:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > > > > At last we discover the lair from which you intend to launch 'Dr No'
> >> >> > > > > plans Al!
>
> >> >> > > > > One can argue that democracy already uses a 'non-argument technology'
> >> >> > > > > called voting.
>
> >> >> > > > > In many respects Allan is right on argument being about reinforcing an
> >> >> > > > > individual's point of view.
>
> >> >> > > > > Studies of the Internet show the most likely reaction to facts is
> >> >> > > > > backfire as people dig in on their original position.
>
> >> >> > > > > Does anyone know 'where' human decision-making takes place - much
> >> >> > > > > modern testing indicates it comes before anything rational (the social
> >> >> > > > > animal thesis).  Adverts are highly irrational, political bull
> >> >> > > > > simplistic and often not true - FDR matched others in rhetoric on not
> >> >> > > > > letting the English fight to the last American to get elected.  Would
> >> >> > > > > any of us want to claim how WW2 came about - I suspect not - but even
> >> >> > > > > what we might know is likely more factual than those who think the
> >> >> > > > > Soviets were on the other side.  Universal education hasn't helped
> >> >> > > > > much on fact bases in individuals.
>
> >> >> > > > > One has to suspect if we could build a bulldung detector it wouldn't
> >> >> > > > > switch off until after we shot the last politician and detergent
> >> >> > > > > salesman.  I don't expect we can build one.  Plato's suggested
> >> >> > > > > technology was to train Guardians - I'd prefer something much less
> >> >> > > > > elitist and socially constructed.
>
> >> >> > > > > Currently, we don't even have reliable voice to text - but statistical
> >> >> > > > > engines are reliable in translation.  There are many problems - not
>
> ...
>
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