Re: Mind's Eye Selfishness, greed and morality

In almost all computer simulations I've seen selfishness only works in
'new markets' and after that cooperation wins. Stephen Pinker has a
book out summarizing why modern societies are more peaceful (despite
wars) than primitive ones as does Jared Diamond. What's gone wrong is
out institutions have not developed to full democracy. In many senses
we are not modern at all. My suspicion is that we haven't worked out
how to be modern in a way that combines science and religion. Science
a la Dawkins is just another religion with vested interests vying with
those of churches, mosques and temples. What I know of physics,
chemistry, biology and maths in no way gives me much clue why we cling
to this rock as opposed to giving up to gnostic nothingness. I don't
do religion because I can't stand the lack of intellectual honesty,
but this doesn't stop me wanting religious fellowship. I'd rather see
this as something concerned with how we might develop and can become
with science and a more global morality - living in peace with respect
for others and the planet - a planet we will have to leave for selfish
survival - and we may have to leave as 'not human'.
Science and our tiny space adventures have shown we are not fitted for
space flight, is hinting other livable planets may be as close as 13
light-years and gives us fantasy notions of getting to the edge of the
universe in 28 relativity bubble years - during which time billions of
years will have evaporated where we started from and go to - we might
well emerge at the end point billions of years out of date! Quite how
one would 'drive' from somewhere that will cease to exist to somewhere
that as yet does not I don't know.

'Driving' in space requires front-back and up-down awareness -
something dizzying if you lie in bed dreaming what it would be like.
Getting up to speeds fast enough to get us 13 light-years in
reasonable time may not be too hard - but we also have to miss
everything in a moving field whilst travelling very fast (unimaginably
fast) and be able to stop (there are possibilities we could use space-
curvature to do this). My guess is our drivers would have to be
android or cyborg and the rest of us genetically altered and in
cryostasis. We don't know what gravity is but we do know we don't
live well without it It may even be that all we can do to leave the
planet will be to send life-spores of somekind out to undergo
evolution again.

Of course, we don't really know what the current state of technology
is let alone what we might know and have in the future. Our salvation
might yet lie in the 'dark'. What we don't see now is that we have
sufficient technology to establish global peace and good living,
subject to population restraint and could be working much harder on
stuff like fusion reactors, wind, solar and hydroelectric (etc.) -
solar and wind now compete on price with coal. Instead, we get
claptrap about the 'growth economy' - which is full of poor
entertainment, fashion trinkets and the rest - a financial system that
is a total control fraud - and this gets me back to Andrew's point on
'what is selfishness'? I suspect that for selfishness to work it has
to be hidden - either disguised as in the politician's speech or
through ideologies that turn it into a 'good'.

I'm not much on consensus - I know how insects establish it (piercing
shrieks - to them - and hygiene - meaning killing off dissent) and
reason quickly gets very unreasonable as most of us don't know enough
to be able to agree through reason. I think laser technology will
give us nuclear fusion other than in bombs, but I don't really know -
and we were lied to about nuclear power for 60 years - nearly all the
reactors until the 60's were about making weapons material and we
should have focused on thorium (prototype on line in India this year)
- a technology that would not have led to weapons proliferation.
Sometimes very selfish and obsession thinking leads us to knowledge
and technology of great benefit, but we haven't come up with sensible
ways of world development - free trade is a farcical idea that has
failed for centuries. In the end I think we are scared about some of
the things Molly talks about - but in the end I'm more scared of
idiots with guns.

On Feb 15, 11:38 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You haven't got the science right Andrew - but no matter - the
> argument from a science fiction scenario is valid.  Selfishness is a
> complex and to an extent it and altruism seem to be about gene
> survival - but will this remain true if biological intelligence is
> coming to and end?  Rigs provides a twist that is important and men
> may not understand as directly as a woman who has been pregnant.
> Hobbes talked of a war of all against all - hence the need to
> surrender to an absolute monarch - though he meant 'a body approved by
> the people' - to protect us from selfish behaviour.  In my view this
> leaves us with questions about leadership and how much we can trust it
> not to be selfish.
>
> On Feb 14, 10:40 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > It's balance. Like "keep a little kid in your Id".
>
> > On Feb 14, 8:21 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I was thinking about "The purpose" discussion and got to telling myself
> > > that everything has a good and a bad side to it  The bad sides to
> > > selfishness and greed are easy to see. What about the good sides of these
> > > otherwise bad behaviors. I like to think that unless you help yourself, you
> > > can not for long help others, so selfisness is vital for doing good. As
> > > well geed for praise and recognition and a feeling of acomplishment and a
> > > bit of heath pride are all good and beautiful faces of otherwise not so
> > > nice  behaviors. Laziness also has a good side that is very easy to argue.
> > > The same goes with seeing the bad side of traits that are normally seen as
> > > good.
>
> > > On Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:32:15 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> > > > It does seem that living things will fill a vacuum- whether weeds or
> > > > opportunists and the basis would be predator/prey behaviors that may
> > > > have a genetic component- maybe within our ancient reptile brain re
> > > > humans.
>
> > > > On Feb 13, 12:23 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > That is what "science fiction" is all about. But just to make it more
> > > > > palatable to you, do you think that behaviors such as selfishness, greed
> > > > > and morality have genetic components?
>
> > > > > On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:22:30 PM UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > > > > > You are discussing fiction as if it were science, Andrew. I find it
> > > > > > unpalatable.
>
> > > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:35 PM, andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com<javascript:>>
>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > The source is from a science fiction "A Short History of a Long
> > > > Future"
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > I wrote about the future.
>
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:45:47 AM UTC+1, RP Singh wrote:
>
> > > > > > >> How authentic is your source , Andrew ?
>
> > > > > > >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:44 PM, andrew vecsey <
> > > > andrew...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >> > I would like to start a discussion about selfishness, greed and
> > > > > > >> > morality.
>
> > > > > > >> > The following YouTube video addresses these topics.
>
> > > > > > >> > See YouTube video "5b Humans, computers and emotion genes and
> > > > > > >> > algorithms"
> > > > > > >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHW5oEplhKE
>
> > > > > > >> > The relevant text of the video is copied below.
>
> > > > > > >> > The selfish and greedy genes
>
> > > > > > >> > In all animals, including man, the selfish gene regulated this
> > > > bond
> > > > > > >> > (that
> > > > > > >> > they had with their own children that animals and robots lacked).
> > > > It
> > > > > > >> > also
> > > > > > >> > regulated the sexual drive to reproduce. Man had an additional
> > > > gene
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> > no
> > > > > > >> > plant or other animals had called the greedy gene. Many
> > > > experiments
> > > > > > were
> > > > > > >> > made concerning these genes. The selfish gene regulating the
> > > > drive to
> > > > > > >> > reproduce was greatly studied because it was believed that it was
> > > > > > >> > related to
> > > > > > >> > the greedy gene. The greedy gene found only in man's genome was
> > > > the
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > >> > studied and understood gene in nature's genome.
>
> > > > > > >> > Transplanting the greedy gene into animals or plants made them
> > > > > > vicious
> > > > > > >> > and
> > > > > > >> > rabid attacking their own kind and killing them. Taking the
> > > > greedy
> > > > > > gene
> > > > > > >> > out
> > > > > > >> > of man made him infertile like a donkey lacking all egg or sperm
> > > > > > >> > production.
> > > > > > >> > With the absence of the greedy gene, the selfish gene was
> > > > > > irreversibly
> > > > > > >> > turned off . Unfortunately it also made man extremely lethargic
> > > > and
> > > > > > >> > unmotivated.
>
> > > > > > >> > Man, with his greedy gene removed, grew and developed into an
> > > > > > >> > unproductive
> > > > > > >> > adult preferring to do nothing. He didn't play, sing, talk, read,
> > > > > > write,
> > > > > > >> > laugh, or cry very much. Throughout his boring life he was never
> > > > > > >> > interested
> > > > > > >> > in socializing, sex, and nor was any one interested in him. So he
> > > > was
> > > > > > >> > left
> > > > > > >> > alone, like a solitary monk, as he wished to be left. He never
> > > > grew
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > >> > and
> > > > > > >> > his emotions never fully developed. He was similar to a sedated
> > > > > > >> > autistic. He
> > > > > > >> > was like a tired adult watching TV after work.
>
> > > > > > >> > Understandably no one wanted or needed selfish and greedy
> > > > machines.
> > > > > > In
> > > > > > >> > laboratories studying genes, machines were given the selfish and
> > > > > > greedy
> > > > > > >> > algorithms in all combinations.
>
> > > > > > >> > It was found that machines with selfish algorithms were very
> > > > > > dangerously
> > > > > > >> > unreliable. They were calculatingly deceptive as they were very
> > > > good
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > >> > lying.  Machines with the greedy algorithm were very dangerous.
> > > > They
> > > > > > >> > couldn't work well with machines or with people. If they were
> > > > > > programmed
> > > > > > >> > with any type of emotion algorithm they would exaggerate their
> > > > > > emotions
> > > > > > >> > to
> > > > > > >> > their allowable thresholds, to the point of aggression, claiming
> > > > it
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > >> > for
> > > > > > >> > the sake of love. When they reached a point of torture and
> > > > cruelty
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > >> > claimed it was necessary for data collection and information
> > > > analysis
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > >> > for
> > > > > > >> > the sake of knowledge. Animals with added greedy genes showed
> > > > signs
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> > cruelty that they otherwise never showed.
>
> > > > > > >> > Experimentation proved that in every animal except man, the
> > > > greedy
> > > > > > gene
> > > > > > >> > eventually lead to self annihilation. Scientists theorized that
> > > > there
> > > > > > >> > must
> > > > > > >> > be a missing invisible gene to mediate and regulate the greedy
> > > > gene
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > >> > man.
> > > > > > >> > They called it the morality gene. Cruelty in man seemed to imply
> > > > an
> > > > > > >> > absence
> > > > > > >> > of the morality gene.
>
> > > > > > >> > Morality gene
>
> > > > > > >> > Scientists wrote morality algorithms for machines, and this
> > > > caused
> > > > > > >> > machines
> > > > > > >> > to eventually grind to a halt. Morality algorithms were seen to
> > > > drain
> > > > > > >> > the
> > > > > > >> > computer's computing powers too much and too fast. Increased
> > > > > > computing
> > > > > > >> > spent
> > > > > > >> > in analyzing morality issues caused increased inefficiencies that
> > > > > > >> > eventually
> > > > > > >> > resulted in reboots.
>
> > > > > > >> > It was as if the computer was overwhelmed and overloaded by
> > > > shame.
>
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