Re: Mind's Eye Re: Good and bad

well maybe there might be some unik employment avenues there

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:04 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

My singing clears life faster than a neutron bomb.

On Mar 30, 8:04 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You took singing lessons in Germany Neil? did you get a chance to sing some
> of Wagner's operas? ;o0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 11:52 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > New Shades of Black sort of works for what I meant to write.  We
> > scientists never got on with grammar, having decided explosions and
> > light effects much more interesting than the seduction of language and
> > the aphoristic path to French homosexuals or novels meant for girls.
> > To us sentences were meaningless enough, probably some sort of mating
> > talk we would eventually have to learn to predicate ourselves with
> > subjects of the wider form of life we hoped to sleep with whilst
> > awake.  Someone forgot to tell Shakespeare we prefer quiet and thus
> > one has to put up with a lot of noise before the rest belatedly
> > acknowledged and consigned to silence by the copy-scribe Wittgenstein
> > whilst in traction.
>
> > What is the decision of the cut-off thumb rigs?  The one next to one
> > hand clapping.  What fuggy muggy logic behind the pub door lures from
> > the temptation of an affair with Karenina otherwise a necessity in not
> > getting out enough?  Translation bitter gnädiges Fräulein lest I lapse
> > to that most logically structured modern language eliminating space
> > grammar of verylongwordsruntogether and verbs inconveniently placed so
> > that one after the event what's going on knows.  Or assume I have gone
> > mad reading Goethe during an opera by Wagner.  There is no difference
> > without differance I was told, French cafe with poor folk music poor
> > folk might have feigned attention of to stay warm as hinterland no
> > desired fuggymug in Paris over beer designed for Pelicans with an old
> > Jewish pied noire clinking Glas because his son had disowned him for
> > secrets said in public.
>
> > I must remember word order in German is more flexible than in English
> > when I study for my certificates in
> > Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz.  You
> > just have to know a compound as long as that concerns or deserves
> > butchery!  Gabby and I (now there's a title for a dreadful sitcom) may
> > share Old Saxon or earlier German grass-porridge growing invaders of
> > Scotland ancestry.  Genes may be better proof than attempting to
> > construct the common language before my Scot's tendency to bad
> > poetics, the lady's dark-eye observation code and the smile that will
> > come on knowledge my grandson has eaten the last of the biscuits.
>
> > On Mar 29, 12:22 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Funny. I was just musing that social media is related to the thumbs up/
> > > down of the Colosseum of ancient Rome! :-)
>
> > > On Mar 29, 6:28 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Oh, the credits for pointing out the possibility/likelihood of being
> > the
> > > > subject/object of distortions go to Rigs! Omitting the predicate might
> > have
> > > > evoked the feeling you could have missed something, but no, you're
> > right,
> > > > there was no point.
>
> > > > The "Oh shit!" pedagogic method is called "black pedagogy", not to be
> > > > mistaken with "black humor", or with the connections to the past that
> > Rigs
> > > > draws.
>
> > > > Hey Neil, how about "New Shades Of Black" as a book title for the book
> > I
> > > > have pre-ordered from you? Ok, I admit, I'm not really waiting, I have
> > > > already started reading. :)
>
> > > > 2013/3/28 James <ashkas...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > > One approach that I've rarely caught in a class is a teacher taking
> > a no
> > > > > BS approach to the material. It seems useful to have a frank
> > historical
> > > > > perspective on what motivates the theories or breaches the old
> > paradigms,
> > > > > perhaps a creative excursion into cultural universals. Maybe picking
> > a few
> > > > > wacky examples of applied economics and let them get a good laugh,
> > then
> > > > > show parallels with their culture to get them thinking.
>
> > > > > One example is ancient civilizations using up natural resources, then
> > > > > looking over the forecasted impact of the US aquifers bottoming out.
> > > > > Suddenly the conservationists don't sound as alarmist, is there a
> > word for
> > > > > the "Oh shit!" pedagogic method? No offense but economics sounds
> > boring in
> > > > > itself, but your thoughts here make it sound interesting. Are you
> > allowed
> > > > > to hint to the class when you think something is little more than an
> > > > > academic publishing circle jerk?
>
> > > > > Hmm, what you've said about 'distorting filters' has me wondering if
> > I
> > > > > missed gabby's point. You lost a book and I was born.. :D
>
> > > > > On 3/27/2013 7:28 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > >> I've just read a book that says neo-classical economics is just an
> > > > >> ideology forced down our throats by the vile rich - actually the
> > whole
> > > > >> book probably says less than that as the authors won't call a spade
> > a
> > > > >> spade.  Gabby seems to have read he book too.  It came 30 years too
> > > > >> late.  I could have missed all those research methods classes and
> > > > >> worried less about feeling economics was a load of junk that could
> > > > >> only make sense to Monty Python's dead Norwegian Blue parrot.
> >  Perhaps
> > > > >> economists have just discovered the archive of my lecture notes,
> > lost
> > > > >> on a bus in Lancaster in 1983?  I seem to remember they advocated
> > > > >> swapping one set of distorting filters for another and mentioning
> > the
> > > > >> term paradigm a lot.  Big data was barred as positivist - a term I
> > > > >> loosely translated as 'guileless scientist like you Neil'. You had
> > to
> > > > >> call data 'capta' to be in with the crowd that mistakenly thought it
> > > > >> was the in crowd, socially constructed facts from thin air I
> > > > >> interpreted as a source for green hydrocarbon production and taught
> > me
> > > > >> to spell phenomenological.
>
> > > > >> On Mar 25, 10:02 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >>> The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>
> > > > >>> 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > >>>  I do not think that we lie to our self so much as that we only
> > see/hear
> > > > >>>> what we want to see/hear. Also we tend to say what we think the
> > other
> > > > >>>> persons wants to hear or say things to hurt other people.
> > > > >>>> On Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:46:03 AM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>> I am more interested in why we lie to ourselves, suppress
> > reality and
> > > > >>>>> snarl logic in our brains. There are life and death moments of
> > > > >>>>> survival, I suppose, but much of our potential is engineered by
> > family
> > > > >>>>> and culture in order to achieve some sort of control and order.
> > Even
> > > > >>>>> rebels are often little more than a reaction. Pretense and
> > etiquette
> > > > >>>>> are often the same thing.//I must have "lost" my thought re "big
> > > > >>>>> data"/"Big Daddy? as an organizer of human knowledge versus the
> > > > >>>>> present scatterings and specialties.// Yes- I agree most have a
> > gut
> > > > >>>>> reaction- but so do other life forms- it's a survival mechanism.
> > But
> > > > >>>>> it can be distorted.
> > > > >>>>> On Mar 24, 4:12 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>>> Faked enthusiasm is as easy to spot as fake love. It is like a
> > built
> > > > >>>>>> in
> > > > >>>>>> like a lie detector that god created us with. Sounds like a
> > good way
> > > > >>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> detect lying on the internet. You can call it "god" instead of
> > "big
> > > > >>>>>> brother".
> > > > >>>>>> On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:08:39 PM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> .....................
>
> > > > >>>>>>> Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy -
> > gist at
> > > > >>>>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/****science/2013/feb/24/**<
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/**science/2013/feb/24/**>
>
> > > > >>>>>> scientists-attacked-ove.<http:**//www.guardian.co.uk/science/**
> > > > >>>>> 2013/feb/24/scientists-**attacked-ove<
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove>
> > > > >>>>> .>..
>
> > > > >>>>>> I agree with rigs that the term is unfortunate.
> > > > >>>>>>> ........but I could feign 'enthusiasm' ..
> > > > >>>>>>> ........' to detect resistance!  Even this
> > > > >>>>>>> .....no employees dumb enough to support
> > > > >>>>>>> excellence, ......
> > > > >>>>>>> if we spent out time pointing such devices at
> > > > >>>>>>> each other though rigs!  Watch out for the first one minute
> > dating
> > > > >>>>>>> agency providing such!  Arghh" .
> > > > >>>>>>> On Mar 22, 1:06 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Junk is an unfortunate adjective- it sounds too random. My
> > guess is
> > > > >>>>>>>> that further selection takes place in this area which selects
> > the
> > > > >>>>>>>> strongest marker- or whatever it's called- such in the color
> > of
>
> > > > >>>>>>> eyes,
>
> > > > >>>>>> hair, and other characteristics. There are also generational
> > skips
>
> > > > >>>>>>> in
>
> > > > >>>>>> play. I have noted other strange echoes of a missing parent
> > such as
> > > > >>>>>>>> the style of laughter which is a surprise and so many other
> > > > >>>>>>>> recognitions. At any rate, we are just beginning to sort
> > through
>
> > > > >>>>>>> the
>
> > > > >>>>>> data in this one area as in others- I think it is called "big
> > data"
> > > > >>>>>>>> which will overcome the religious notion of "sins of the
> > father"
>
> > > > >>>>>>> stuff
>
> > > > >>>>>> as well as curses and fate and will hopefully allow a more
> > rational
> > > > >>>>>>>> and postive approach/life choices for each unique individual.
> > But
>
> > > > >>>>>>> it
>
> > > > >>>>>> will also cause mischief.
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 5:16 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Not
>

> ...
>
> read more »

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 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye What to do about the rich?

Our great victory over the Armada is over-written rugs and had a lot
to do with the weather and Dutch. One has to agree wealth is usually
amassed on the broken backs of others, I don't think we need to be so
libidinal or mean given new technology. I would have liked to spend
more time with literature - I did music for a long time - enough to
know I was no good. I'm not much affected by the arts and certainly
have no talent or even representational ability in such. It's not
that I don't appreciate such - I get wowed but it's never enough in-
itself for me - I suspect too many people have lost out in modern
culture - I can barely remember a rugby coach without a guitar and
choruses of American Pie and Classical Gas to prove I had a sensitive
side to doubting ladies. I can appreciate local talent nights - just
hate to see them on television. I spent 4 hours in the Vatican just
to see a Raphael and a Holbeck. Of course, I spent weeks with the Ma
and Wang paper on the dark-adjusted field equations I'm sure I posted
here as a tease.. There's a beauty in such that never materialises
from economic regressions. You are in what passes for my prayer too.

On Mar 30, 3:02 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> no rigsy not all RC Property and wealth belongs to rome,,,  all of the
> european wealth (old money) either came off the backs of the poor or was
> stolen else where.. with rare exception..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 1:45 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I would have to say that all RC property and wealth "belonged" to
> > Rome, in a sense.//What about the Armada victory? A navy has to start
> > somewhere, afterall. :-)//Yes- I took away some thoughts to savor and
> > save after the Tudor classes. The prof had attended Oxford and had
> > delightful asides. I called him about a paper and lo and behold he
> > lived in one of my childhood homes! He invited me to go through but I
> > declined- it would have disturbed my memories, perhaps. He retired a
> > few years ago.// Money just replaced lineage and land...more portable.
> > But it cannot replace education and other qualities.//I read you last
> > night and felt blue afterwards- reminded me of Anthony Burgess-
> > "Nothing Like the Sun"- in its energy. I often pray for you and
> > others. But I loved Chaucer (read in Middle English) and Milton and
> > only audited Shakespeare as a course or picked up works in other
> > courses. I have some favorites of Yeats and read up on Maud Gonne who
> > intrigued me.//
>
> > On Mar 30, 1:28 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure the Papacy ever owned the dissolved monasteries rigs,
> > > though the process did fund about 30 ships.  A hundred years later we
> > > were floating joint stock companies to attack Spain - a failed Drake-
> > > Norris expedition being the first (£80K only returning £30K in
> > > plunder).  The Royal Navy comes much later with the Act of Union
> > > (1707) and it's around then money was raised by the Bank of England.
> > > I would have fancied a maritime Robin Hood raid on the Vatican myself.
> > > I don't see this rich thing as about class - it's more to do with
> > > social structuring through 'money as power' - as a famous poem stated,
> > > there's no point in changing the rulers.
> > >  THE GREAT DAY (W.B. Yeats in Montague 1974:239)
>
> > > Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
> > > A beggar on horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
> > > Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
> > > The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
>
> > > Not only do we have to get rid of the rich, we need to ensure no new
> > > group forms - this was the idea of classical economics - to remove the
> > > drain of economic rents on production.  All the current fuss is
> > > because we failed to do this - nearly all the complaints about welfare
> > > drains to the poor and so on are irrelevant.  The welfare queens are
> > > the banks.
>
> > > The obvious thing is that we are being told, after massive increases
> > > in technology and productivity, we are worse off.  On preference I'd
> > > want no part in the idiot system but it's hard to keep wolves from the
> > > door without taking the establishment mark - unless you luck in to
> > > something.  Tudor history help much when you worked at the S & L rigs?
> > > (in the same way my quantum chemistry didn't when teaching bankers) -
> > > I have a feeling we may discover how useless the banksters have really
> > > been this year.
>
> > > On 29 Mar, 21:23, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I also remember how the german currency went to worthless also.. I am
> > > > thinking about what the man said abou the fiction of currency
>
> > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:54 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Spot on on Lagarde rigs.  Her flat was raided in a criminal enquiry.
> > > > >  She may have had a role in a dodgy French arms' deal with Pakistan
> > > > > where bribes were kicked back to fund the Franco-GOP candidate in a
> > > > > presidential election.  I can remember playing musical chairs as a
> > kid
> > > > > - I liked the running about and bumping into girls (this was the
> > other
> > > > > way round) but had no clue the idea was not to be left standing,
> > > > > wondering why deviant adults kept stealing the chairs.  I submit the
> > > > > long adult version with child replaced by gawping scientist.
>
> > > > > It is impossible to apply hard science to these issues. I do
> > sometimes
> > > > > try to think as a scientist without knowledge of economics –
> > difficult
> > > > > as I teach the subject in business context. I always find, in this
> > > > > thought experiment, that I just would not start with concepts from
> > > > > economics. A key finding in 'anthropological archaeology' is that the
> > > > > lives of a certain class of people got worse with our turn to
> > > > > agriculture – something we might call 'broken back syndrome amongst
> > > > > the sod turners'. A book of examples later, I conclude the problem
> > > > > with real-world economics – the theories-in-action as opposed to
> > > > > espoused – is that it has no way of fairly organising work and reward
> > > > > against such ideals we might cherish like real democracy and proper
> > > > > guardianship of the planet. This no doubt looks like naive thinking.
> > I
> > > > > then find myself thinking about how we organise such matters as 'a
> > > > > trip to Mars' (Newton, Einstein, the 3-body problem, moving space and
> > > > > down to stuff like the crew having to line (with proper hygiene) the
> > > > > craft with their excrement to protect against 'space weather'. Lots
> > of
> > > > > other complex systems flow – the arms' race of co-evolution,
> > combating
> > > > > Lyme's disease, parasitism as the most common lifestyle – and I find
> > > > > myself questioning why I an feel some much more competent as a
> > > > > scientist than economist or increasingly disaffected cog in the
> > > > > political machine.
> > > > > Popper once pointed out that Freud and Marx could not be scientific
> > > > > because if you went against the theories you were immediately in
> > > > > denial or false-consciousness. As we repeatedly see "economics"
> > > > > destroy the potential of most ordinary lives (and those of the few
> > > > > through hedonism in a libidinal economy) we are told it is because we
> > > > > just won't engage in real free markets – the neoclassic form of the
> > > > > denial-false-consciousness routine.
> > > > > I'm less inclined to worry who is next to go under as a country in
> > the
> > > > > great depression (I guess Luxembourg, Switzerland, UK – though all
> > > > > bets are off if the USD goes down) – but on how and why we are in
> > > > > thrall to a mad control fraud that keeps on failing. Invited on a
> > > > > space ship to Mars built by economists I would simply wish the crew
> > > > > godspeed and utter a silent atheist prayer, noting that oars are an
> > > > > unlikely propulsion system. If the crew were Critical Theorists I'd
> > > > > want to save, I'd be happy in the thought none of them could row.
> > > > > Deep down we seem scared of the idea of a world of people with enough
> > > > > "money and security" to be able to tell power they will only work for
> > > > > "things and a quality of life" they want. I have instant reservations
> > > > > about this state myself as a manager and through experience of free-
> > > > > loading and the dire trivia most people "want" – from plastic crap,
> > > > > neat mobile phones to Saudi princes raiding Syrian refugee camps for
> > > > > wives. Nonetheless, with much of 'Robot Heaven' with us in principle
> > > > > and some practice, the lack of modern thought experiments (such as
> > > > > what place Calvinist work ethic would have in 100% Robot Heaven – how
> > > > > could we morally keep people poor when machines do all the work etc?)
> > > > > and repeated fetish concerns with homilies from the 18th century
> > > > > leaves me cold.
>
> > > > > The current model seems no better than handing over bags of
> > electronic
> > > > > cash to people who trouser it and at most engage in acts of charity
> > > > > similar to pouring slops over a medieval monastery wall. In the UK we
> > > > > have a Chancellor so smart he has just created a British Fanny Mae/
> > > > > Freddy Mac! As one country after another faces becoming Cyprus (by
> > the
> > > > > end of next week we will be discovering we don't know the half of
> > that
> > > > > – note three old-fogey judges are already rostered for the cover-up)
> > > > > we have no politics of lancing the banking boil generally and
> > > > > production-based (responsible type) schemes for people to work their
> > > > > way out of the mess without seeing the toil go to paying off bank
> > > > > debts.
>
> > > > > I agree with Allan that all this is really about the rich stealing.
> > > > >  What we lack is a conception of a fairer society that makes sense of
> > > > > what people would be in it.  I share rigs' concerns with the
> > 'ash-grey
> > > > > uniform of equality' and big government, but we can at least dream up
> > > > > something in which this would not come about.  "They" certainly seem
> > > > > to be putting the wind up us - making us feel money in the bank may
> > as
> > > > > well be hidden about the house - yet somewhere we seem to have
> > > > > forgotten how quickly economies can recover as Germany and Japan did
> > > > > after WW2.
>
> > > > > On 29 Mar, 14:39, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > henry the 8th was all about divorce..    So it is okay to steal
> > what is
> > > > > > freely given to the church and use it to line you pockets or royal
> > > > > > treasury..   what you are saying is it is okay to steal as long as
> > you
> > > > > can
> > > > > > blame others for your wrong doing..  there is a great litany of
> > excuses
> > > > > the
> > > > > > rich use for stealing ...   wonder if these excuses work with God
> > as you
> > > > > > understand him..
>
> > > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > The wealth and lands of the Church were part of papal wealth. The
>
> ...
>
> read more »

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Good and bad

My singing clears life faster than a neutron bomb.

On Mar 30, 8:04 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You took singing lessons in Germany Neil? did you get a chance to sing some
> of Wagner's operas? ;o0
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 11:52 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > New Shades of Black sort of works for what I meant to write.  We
> > scientists never got on with grammar, having decided explosions and
> > light effects much more interesting than the seduction of language and
> > the aphoristic path to French homosexuals or novels meant for girls.
> > To us sentences were meaningless enough, probably some sort of mating
> > talk we would eventually have to learn to predicate ourselves with
> > subjects of the wider form of life we hoped to sleep with whilst
> > awake.  Someone forgot to tell Shakespeare we prefer quiet and thus
> > one has to put up with a lot of noise before the rest belatedly
> > acknowledged and consigned to silence by the copy-scribe Wittgenstein
> > whilst in traction.
>
> > What is the decision of the cut-off thumb rigs?  The one next to one
> > hand clapping.  What fuggy muggy logic behind the pub door lures from
> > the temptation of an affair with Karenina otherwise a necessity in not
> > getting out enough?  Translation bitter gnädiges Fräulein lest I lapse
> > to that most logically structured modern language eliminating space
> > grammar of verylongwordsruntogether and verbs inconveniently placed so
> > that one after the event what's going on knows.  Or assume I have gone
> > mad reading Goethe during an opera by Wagner.  There is no difference
> > without differance I was told, French cafe with poor folk music poor
> > folk might have feigned attention of to stay warm as hinterland no
> > desired fuggymug in Paris over beer designed for Pelicans with an old
> > Jewish pied noire clinking Glas because his son had disowned him for
> > secrets said in public.
>
> > I must remember word order in German is more flexible than in English
> > when I study for my certificates in
> > Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz.  You
> > just have to know a compound as long as that concerns or deserves
> > butchery!  Gabby and I (now there's a title for a dreadful sitcom) may
> > share Old Saxon or earlier German grass-porridge growing invaders of
> > Scotland ancestry.  Genes may be better proof than attempting to
> > construct the common language before my Scot's tendency to bad
> > poetics, the lady's dark-eye observation code and the smile that will
> > come on knowledge my grandson has eaten the last of the biscuits.
>
> > On Mar 29, 12:22 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Funny. I was just musing that social media is related to the thumbs up/
> > > down of the Colosseum of ancient Rome! :-)
>
> > > On Mar 29, 6:28 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Oh, the credits for pointing out the possibility/likelihood of being
> > the
> > > > subject/object of distortions go to Rigs! Omitting the predicate might
> > have
> > > > evoked the feeling you could have missed something, but no, you're
> > right,
> > > > there was no point.
>
> > > > The "Oh shit!" pedagogic method is called "black pedagogy", not to be
> > > > mistaken with "black humor", or with the connections to the past that
> > Rigs
> > > > draws.
>
> > > > Hey Neil, how about "New Shades Of Black" as a book title for the book
> > I
> > > > have pre-ordered from you? Ok, I admit, I'm not really waiting, I have
> > > > already started reading. :)
>
> > > > 2013/3/28 James <ashkas...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > > One approach that I've rarely caught in a class is a teacher taking
> > a no
> > > > > BS approach to the material. It seems useful to have a frank
> > historical
> > > > > perspective on what motivates the theories or breaches the old
> > paradigms,
> > > > > perhaps a creative excursion into cultural universals. Maybe picking
> > a few
> > > > > wacky examples of applied economics and let them get a good laugh,
> > then
> > > > > show parallels with their culture to get them thinking.
>
> > > > > One example is ancient civilizations using up natural resources, then
> > > > > looking over the forecasted impact of the US aquifers bottoming out.
> > > > > Suddenly the conservationists don't sound as alarmist, is there a
> > word for
> > > > > the "Oh shit!" pedagogic method? No offense but economics sounds
> > boring in
> > > > > itself, but your thoughts here make it sound interesting. Are you
> > allowed
> > > > > to hint to the class when you think something is little more than an
> > > > > academic publishing circle jerk?
>
> > > > > Hmm, what you've said about 'distorting filters' has me wondering if
> > I
> > > > > missed gabby's point. You lost a book and I was born.. :D
>
> > > > > On 3/27/2013 7:28 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > > > >> I've just read a book that says neo-classical economics is just an
> > > > >> ideology forced down our throats by the vile rich - actually the
> > whole
> > > > >> book probably says less than that as the authors won't call a spade
> > a
> > > > >> spade.  Gabby seems to have read he book too.  It came 30 years too
> > > > >> late.  I could have missed all those research methods classes and
> > > > >> worried less about feeling economics was a load of junk that could
> > > > >> only make sense to Monty Python's dead Norwegian Blue parrot.
> >  Perhaps
> > > > >> economists have just discovered the archive of my lecture notes,
> > lost
> > > > >> on a bus in Lancaster in 1983?  I seem to remember they advocated
> > > > >> swapping one set of distorting filters for another and mentioning
> > the
> > > > >> term paradigm a lot.  Big data was barred as positivist - a term I
> > > > >> loosely translated as 'guileless scientist like you Neil'. You had
> > to
> > > > >> call data 'capta' to be in with the crowd that mistakenly thought it
> > > > >> was the in crowd, socially constructed facts from thin air I
> > > > >> interpreted as a source for green hydrocarbon production and taught
> > me
> > > > >> to spell phenomenological.
>
> > > > >> On Mar 25, 10:02 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >>> The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>
> > > > >>> 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
>
> > > > >>>  I do not think that we lie to our self so much as that we only
> > see/hear
> > > > >>>> what we want to see/hear. Also we tend to say what we think the
> > other
> > > > >>>> persons wants to hear or say things to hurt other people.
> > > > >>>> On Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:46:03 AM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>> I am more interested in why we lie to ourselves, suppress
> > reality and
> > > > >>>>> snarl logic in our brains. There are life and death moments of
> > > > >>>>> survival, I suppose, but much of our potential is engineered by
> > family
> > > > >>>>> and culture in order to achieve some sort of control and order.
> > Even
> > > > >>>>> rebels are often little more than a reaction. Pretense and
> > etiquette
> > > > >>>>> are often the same thing.//I must have "lost" my thought re "big
> > > > >>>>> data"/"Big Daddy? as an organizer of human knowledge versus the
> > > > >>>>> present scatterings and specialties.// Yes- I agree most have a
> > gut
> > > > >>>>> reaction- but so do other life forms- it's a survival mechanism.
> > But
> > > > >>>>> it can be distorted.
> > > > >>>>> On Mar 24, 4:12 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>>> Faked enthusiasm is as easy to spot as fake love. It is like a
> > built
> > > > >>>>>> in
> > > > >>>>>> like a lie detector that god created us with. Sounds like a
> > good way
> > > > >>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>> detect lying on the internet. You can call it "god" instead of
> > "big
> > > > >>>>>> brother".
> > > > >>>>>> On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:08:39 PM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
> > > > >>>>>> .....................
>
> > > > >>>>>>> Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy -
> > gist at
> > > > >>>>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/****science/2013/feb/24/**<
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/**science/2013/feb/24/**>
>
> > > > >>>>>> scientists-attacked-ove.<http:**//www.guardian.co.uk/science/**
> > > > >>>>> 2013/feb/24/scientists-**attacked-ove<
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove>
> > > > >>>>> .>..
>
> > > > >>>>>> I agree with rigs that the term is unfortunate.
> > > > >>>>>>> ........but I could feign 'enthusiasm' ..
> > > > >>>>>>> ........' to detect resistance!  Even this
> > > > >>>>>>> .....no employees dumb enough to support
> > > > >>>>>>> excellence, ......
> > > > >>>>>>> if we spent out time pointing such devices at
> > > > >>>>>>> each other though rigs!  Watch out for the first one minute
> > dating
> > > > >>>>>>> agency providing such!  Arghh" .
> > > > >>>>>>> On Mar 22, 1:06 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Junk is an unfortunate adjective- it sounds too random. My
> > guess is
> > > > >>>>>>>> that further selection takes place in this area which selects
> > the
> > > > >>>>>>>> strongest marker- or whatever it's called- such in the color
> > of
>
> > > > >>>>>>> eyes,
>
> > > > >>>>>> hair, and other characteristics. There are also generational
> > skips
>
> > > > >>>>>>> in
>
> > > > >>>>>> play. I have noted other strange echoes of a missing parent
> > such as
> > > > >>>>>>>> the style of laughter which is a surprise and so many other
> > > > >>>>>>>> recognitions. At any rate, we are just beginning to sort
> > through
>
> > > > >>>>>>> the
>
> > > > >>>>>> data in this one area as in others- I think it is called "big
> > data"
> > > > >>>>>>>> which will overcome the religious notion of "sins of the
> > father"
>
> > > > >>>>>>> stuff
>
> > > > >>>>>> as well as curses and fate and will hopefully allow a more
> > rational
> > > > >>>>>>>> and postive approach/life choices for each unique individual.
> > But
>
> > > > >>>>>>> it
>
> > > > >>>>>> will also cause mischief.
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 5:16 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Not
>
> ...
>
> read more »

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Re: Mind's Eye What to do about the rich?

no rigsy not all RC Property and wealth belongs to rome,,,  all of the european wealth (old money) either came off the backs of the poor or was stolen else where.. with rare exception..

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 1:45 PM, rigs <rigs117@gmail.com> wrote:

I would have to say that all RC property and wealth "belonged" to
Rome, in a sense.//What about the Armada victory? A navy has to start
somewhere, afterall. :-)//Yes- I took away some thoughts to savor and
save after the Tudor classes. The prof had attended Oxford and had
delightful asides. I called him about a paper and lo and behold he
lived in one of my childhood homes! He invited me to go through but I
declined- it would have disturbed my memories, perhaps. He retired a
few years ago.// Money just replaced lineage and land...more portable.
But it cannot replace education and other qualities.//I read you last
night and felt blue afterwards- reminded me of Anthony Burgess-
"Nothing Like the Sun"- in its energy. I often pray for you and
others. But I loved Chaucer (read in Middle English) and Milton and
only audited Shakespeare as a course or picked up works in other
courses. I have some favorites of Yeats and read up on Maud Gonne who
intrigued me.//

On Mar 30, 1:28 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure the Papacy ever owned the dissolved monasteries rigs,
> though the process did fund about 30 ships.  A hundred years later we
> were floating joint stock companies to attack Spain - a failed Drake-
> Norris expedition being the first (£80K only returning £30K in
> plunder).  The Royal Navy comes much later with the Act of Union
> (1707) and it's around then money was raised by the Bank of England.
> I would have fancied a maritime Robin Hood raid on the Vatican myself.
> I don't see this rich thing as about class - it's more to do with
> social structuring through 'money as power' - as a famous poem stated,
> there's no point in changing the rulers.
>  THE GREAT DAY (W.B. Yeats in Montague 1974:239)
>
> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
> A beggar on horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
>
> Not only do we have to get rid of the rich, we need to ensure no new
> group forms - this was the idea of classical economics - to remove the
> drain of economic rents on production.  All the current fuss is
> because we failed to do this - nearly all the complaints about welfare
> drains to the poor and so on are irrelevant.  The welfare queens are
> the banks.
>
> The obvious thing is that we are being told, after massive increases
> in technology and productivity, we are worse off.  On preference I'd
> want no part in the idiot system but it's hard to keep wolves from the
> door without taking the establishment mark - unless you luck in to
> something.  Tudor history help much when you worked at the S & L rigs?
> (in the same way my quantum chemistry didn't when teaching bankers) -
> I have a feeling we may discover how useless the banksters have really
> been this year.
>
> On 29 Mar, 21:23, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I also remember how the german currency went to worthless also.. I am
> > thinking about what the man said abou the fiction of currency
>
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:54 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Spot on on Lagarde rigs.  Her flat was raided in a criminal enquiry.
> > >  She may have had a role in a dodgy French arms' deal with Pakistan
> > > where bribes were kicked back to fund the Franco-GOP candidate in a
> > > presidential election.  I can remember playing musical chairs as a kid
> > > - I liked the running about and bumping into girls (this was the other
> > > way round) but had no clue the idea was not to be left standing,
> > > wondering why deviant adults kept stealing the chairs.  I submit the
> > > long adult version with child replaced by gawping scientist.
>
> > > It is impossible to apply hard science to these issues. I do sometimes
> > > try to think as a scientist without knowledge of economics – difficult
> > > as I teach the subject in business context. I always find, in this
> > > thought experiment, that I just would not start with concepts from
> > > economics. A key finding in 'anthropological archaeology' is that the
> > > lives of a certain class of people got worse with our turn to
> > > agriculture – something we might call 'broken back syndrome amongst
> > > the sod turners'. A book of examples later, I conclude the problem
> > > with real-world economics – the theories-in-action as opposed to
> > > espoused – is that it has no way of fairly organising work and reward
> > > against such ideals we might cherish like real democracy and proper
> > > guardianship of the planet. This no doubt looks like naive thinking. I
> > > then find myself thinking about how we organise such matters as 'a
> > > trip to Mars' (Newton, Einstein, the 3-body problem, moving space and
> > > down to stuff like the crew having to line (with proper hygiene) the
> > > craft with their excrement to protect against 'space weather'. Lots of
> > > other complex systems flow – the arms' race of co-evolution, combating
> > > Lyme's disease, parasitism as the most common lifestyle – and I find
> > > myself questioning why I an feel some much more competent as a
> > > scientist than economist or increasingly disaffected cog in the
> > > political machine.
> > > Popper once pointed out that Freud and Marx could not be scientific
> > > because if you went against the theories you were immediately in
> > > denial or false-consciousness. As we repeatedly see "economics"
> > > destroy the potential of most ordinary lives (and those of the few
> > > through hedonism in a libidinal economy) we are told it is because we
> > > just won't engage in real free markets – the neoclassic form of the
> > > denial-false-consciousness routine.
> > > I'm less inclined to worry who is next to go under as a country in the
> > > great depression (I guess Luxembourg, Switzerland, UK – though all
> > > bets are off if the USD goes down) – but on how and why we are in
> > > thrall to a mad control fraud that keeps on failing. Invited on a
> > > space ship to Mars built by economists I would simply wish the crew
> > > godspeed and utter a silent atheist prayer, noting that oars are an
> > > unlikely propulsion system. If the crew were Critical Theorists I'd
> > > want to save, I'd be happy in the thought none of them could row.
> > > Deep down we seem scared of the idea of a world of people with enough
> > > "money and security" to be able to tell power they will only work for
> > > "things and a quality of life" they want. I have instant reservations
> > > about this state myself as a manager and through experience of free-
> > > loading and the dire trivia most people "want" – from plastic crap,
> > > neat mobile phones to Saudi princes raiding Syrian refugee camps for
> > > wives. Nonetheless, with much of 'Robot Heaven' with us in principle
> > > and some practice, the lack of modern thought experiments (such as
> > > what place Calvinist work ethic would have in 100% Robot Heaven – how
> > > could we morally keep people poor when machines do all the work etc?)
> > > and repeated fetish concerns with homilies from the 18th century
> > > leaves me cold.
>
> > > The current model seems no better than handing over bags of electronic
> > > cash to people who trouser it and at most engage in acts of charity
> > > similar to pouring slops over a medieval monastery wall. In the UK we
> > > have a Chancellor so smart he has just created a British Fanny Mae/
> > > Freddy Mac! As one country after another faces becoming Cyprus (by the
> > > end of next week we will be discovering we don't know the half of that
> > > – note three old-fogey judges are already rostered for the cover-up)
> > > we have no politics of lancing the banking boil generally and
> > > production-based (responsible type) schemes for people to work their
> > > way out of the mess without seeing the toil go to paying off bank
> > > debts.
>
> > > I agree with Allan that all this is really about the rich stealing.
> > >  What we lack is a conception of a fairer society that makes sense of
> > > what people would be in it.  I share rigs' concerns with the 'ash-grey
> > > uniform of equality' and big government, but we can at least dream up
> > > something in which this would not come about.  "They" certainly seem
> > > to be putting the wind up us - making us feel money in the bank may as
> > > well be hidden about the house - yet somewhere we seem to have
> > > forgotten how quickly economies can recover as Germany and Japan did
> > > after WW2.
>
> > > On 29 Mar, 14:39, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > henry the 8th was all about divorce..    So it is okay to steal what is
> > > > freely given to the church and use it to line you pockets or royal
> > > > treasury..   what you are saying is it is okay to steal as long as you
> > > can
> > > > blame others for your wrong doing..  there is a great litany of excuses
> > > the
> > > > rich use for stealing ...   wonder if these excuses work with God as you
> > > > understand him..
>
> > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The wealth and lands of the Church were part of papal wealth. The
> > > > > royal treasury was empty. Yes- the British navy took off under the
> > > > > Tudors. The divorces came later along with his "solutions". (I did
> > > > > take a 2 quarter course in Tudor history but request some slack for
> > > > > facts.) One could also point to the later Enclosure act that ended the
> > > > > common lands and set up the British aristocracy leading to slum-cities
> > > > > and the ills of the Industrial Revolution. It's musical chairs. The
> > > > > greedy still create their own enviornment but change the nouns and
> > > > > verbs - they still need power to attain their ends: politics or wars.
>
> > > > > On Mar 29, 3:30 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Rigsy  Henry the 8th got his navy on the backs of the poor.. not the
> > > > > > Papacy .. all he did was destroy a bunch of monasteries.. but there
> > > > > > was never enough money there to fiance his navy.. get real..  stole
> > > > > > from church because they would not let him have his way with
> > > > > > divorces..  how many did he go through either by divorce or killing
> > > > > > them.. one thing for sure he is no hero..  more of a cowering thief.
>
> > > > > > the greedy created their own environmental and fears and then created
> > > > > > and taught people to fulfill their fears  so they can scream they are
> > > > > > right and point fingers.. all signs  of the cult of the golden calf.
>
> > > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's not a myth- it's a fact. One you don't like along with
> > > zillions
> > > > > > > of others. And the rich do create opportunities for others. There
> > > are
> > > > > > > misers, of course, but the poor can also be miserly. Let's get our
> > > > > > > moral judgements on a realistic plane as human nature has its good
> > > and
> > > > > > > bad points in all economic
>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye What to do about the rich?

I would have to say that all RC property and wealth "belonged" to
Rome, in a sense.//What about the Armada victory? A navy has to start
somewhere, afterall. :-)//Yes- I took away some thoughts to savor and
save after the Tudor classes. The prof had attended Oxford and had
delightful asides. I called him about a paper and lo and behold he
lived in one of my childhood homes! He invited me to go through but I
declined- it would have disturbed my memories, perhaps. He retired a
few years ago.// Money just replaced lineage and land...more portable.
But it cannot replace education and other qualities.//I read you last
night and felt blue afterwards- reminded me of Anthony Burgess-
"Nothing Like the Sun"- in its energy. I often pray for you and
others. But I loved Chaucer (read in Middle English) and Milton and
only audited Shakespeare as a course or picked up works in other
courses. I have some favorites of Yeats and read up on Maud Gonne who
intrigued me.//

On Mar 30, 1:28 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure the Papacy ever owned the dissolved monasteries rigs,
> though the process did fund about 30 ships.  A hundred years later we
> were floating joint stock companies to attack Spain - a failed Drake-
> Norris expedition being the first (£80K only returning £30K in
> plunder).  The Royal Navy comes much later with the Act of Union
> (1707) and it's around then money was raised by the Bank of England.
> I would have fancied a maritime Robin Hood raid on the Vatican myself.
> I don't see this rich thing as about class - it's more to do with
> social structuring through 'money as power' - as a famous poem stated,
> there's no point in changing the rulers.
>  THE GREAT DAY (W.B. Yeats in Montague 1974:239)
>
> Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
> A beggar on horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
> Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
> The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.
>
> Not only do we have to get rid of the rich, we need to ensure no new
> group forms - this was the idea of classical economics - to remove the
> drain of economic rents on production.  All the current fuss is
> because we failed to do this - nearly all the complaints about welfare
> drains to the poor and so on are irrelevant.  The welfare queens are
> the banks.
>
> The obvious thing is that we are being told, after massive increases
> in technology and productivity, we are worse off.  On preference I'd
> want no part in the idiot system but it's hard to keep wolves from the
> door without taking the establishment mark - unless you luck in to
> something.  Tudor history help much when you worked at the S & L rigs?
> (in the same way my quantum chemistry didn't when teaching bankers) -
> I have a feeling we may discover how useless the banksters have really
> been this year.
>
> On 29 Mar, 21:23, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I also remember how the german currency went to worthless also.. I am
> > thinking about what the man said abou the fiction of currency
>
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:54 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Spot on on Lagarde rigs.  Her flat was raided in a criminal enquiry.
> > >  She may have had a role in a dodgy French arms' deal with Pakistan
> > > where bribes were kicked back to fund the Franco-GOP candidate in a
> > > presidential election.  I can remember playing musical chairs as a kid
> > > - I liked the running about and bumping into girls (this was the other
> > > way round) but had no clue the idea was not to be left standing,
> > > wondering why deviant adults kept stealing the chairs.  I submit the
> > > long adult version with child replaced by gawping scientist.
>
> > > It is impossible to apply hard science to these issues. I do sometimes
> > > try to think as a scientist without knowledge of economics – difficult
> > > as I teach the subject in business context. I always find, in this
> > > thought experiment, that I just would not start with concepts from
> > > economics. A key finding in 'anthropological archaeology' is that the
> > > lives of a certain class of people got worse with our turn to
> > > agriculture – something we might call 'broken back syndrome amongst
> > > the sod turners'. A book of examples later, I conclude the problem
> > > with real-world economics – the theories-in-action as opposed to
> > > espoused – is that it has no way of fairly organising work and reward
> > > against such ideals we might cherish like real democracy and proper
> > > guardianship of the planet. This no doubt looks like naive thinking. I
> > > then find myself thinking about how we organise such matters as 'a
> > > trip to Mars' (Newton, Einstein, the 3-body problem, moving space and
> > > down to stuff like the crew having to line (with proper hygiene) the
> > > craft with their excrement to protect against 'space weather'. Lots of
> > > other complex systems flow – the arms' race of co-evolution, combating
> > > Lyme's disease, parasitism as the most common lifestyle – and I find
> > > myself questioning why I an feel some much more competent as a
> > > scientist than economist or increasingly disaffected cog in the
> > > political machine.
> > > Popper once pointed out that Freud and Marx could not be scientific
> > > because if you went against the theories you were immediately in
> > > denial or false-consciousness. As we repeatedly see "economics"
> > > destroy the potential of most ordinary lives (and those of the few
> > > through hedonism in a libidinal economy) we are told it is because we
> > > just won't engage in real free markets – the neoclassic form of the
> > > denial-false-consciousness routine.
> > > I'm less inclined to worry who is next to go under as a country in the
> > > great depression (I guess Luxembourg, Switzerland, UK – though all
> > > bets are off if the USD goes down) – but on how and why we are in
> > > thrall to a mad control fraud that keeps on failing. Invited on a
> > > space ship to Mars built by economists I would simply wish the crew
> > > godspeed and utter a silent atheist prayer, noting that oars are an
> > > unlikely propulsion system. If the crew were Critical Theorists I'd
> > > want to save, I'd be happy in the thought none of them could row.
> > > Deep down we seem scared of the idea of a world of people with enough
> > > "money and security" to be able to tell power they will only work for
> > > "things and a quality of life" they want. I have instant reservations
> > > about this state myself as a manager and through experience of free-
> > > loading and the dire trivia most people "want" – from plastic crap,
> > > neat mobile phones to Saudi princes raiding Syrian refugee camps for
> > > wives. Nonetheless, with much of 'Robot Heaven' with us in principle
> > > and some practice, the lack of modern thought experiments (such as
> > > what place Calvinist work ethic would have in 100% Robot Heaven – how
> > > could we morally keep people poor when machines do all the work etc?)
> > > and repeated fetish concerns with homilies from the 18th century
> > > leaves me cold.
>
> > > The current model seems no better than handing over bags of electronic
> > > cash to people who trouser it and at most engage in acts of charity
> > > similar to pouring slops over a medieval monastery wall. In the UK we
> > > have a Chancellor so smart he has just created a British Fanny Mae/
> > > Freddy Mac! As one country after another faces becoming Cyprus (by the
> > > end of next week we will be discovering we don't know the half of that
> > > – note three old-fogey judges are already rostered for the cover-up)
> > > we have no politics of lancing the banking boil generally and
> > > production-based (responsible type) schemes for people to work their
> > > way out of the mess without seeing the toil go to paying off bank
> > > debts.
>
> > > I agree with Allan that all this is really about the rich stealing.
> > >  What we lack is a conception of a fairer society that makes sense of
> > > what people would be in it.  I share rigs' concerns with the 'ash-grey
> > > uniform of equality' and big government, but we can at least dream up
> > > something in which this would not come about.  "They" certainly seem
> > > to be putting the wind up us - making us feel money in the bank may as
> > > well be hidden about the house - yet somewhere we seem to have
> > > forgotten how quickly economies can recover as Germany and Japan did
> > > after WW2.
>
> > > On 29 Mar, 14:39, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > henry the 8th was all about divorce..    So it is okay to steal what is
> > > > freely given to the church and use it to line you pockets or royal
> > > > treasury..   what you are saying is it is okay to steal as long as you
> > > can
> > > > blame others for your wrong doing..  there is a great litany of excuses
> > > the
> > > > rich use for stealing ...   wonder if these excuses work with God as you
> > > > understand him..
>
> > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The wealth and lands of the Church were part of papal wealth. The
> > > > > royal treasury was empty. Yes- the British navy took off under the
> > > > > Tudors. The divorces came later along with his "solutions". (I did
> > > > > take a 2 quarter course in Tudor history but request some slack for
> > > > > facts.) One could also point to the later Enclosure act that ended the
> > > > > common lands and set up the British aristocracy leading to slum-cities
> > > > > and the ills of the Industrial Revolution. It's musical chairs. The
> > > > > greedy still create their own enviornment but change the nouns and
> > > > > verbs - they still need power to attain their ends: politics or wars.
>
> > > > > On Mar 29, 3:30 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Rigsy  Henry the 8th got his navy on the backs of the poor.. not the
> > > > > > Papacy .. all he did was destroy a bunch of monasteries.. but there
> > > > > > was never enough money there to fiance his navy.. get real..  stole
> > > > > > from church because they would not let him have his way with
> > > > > > divorces..  how many did he go through either by divorce or killing
> > > > > > them.. one thing for sure he is no hero..  more of a cowering thief.
>
> > > > > > the greedy created their own environmental and fears and then created
> > > > > > and taught people to fulfill their fears  so they can scream they are
> > > > > > right and point fingers.. all signs  of the cult of the golden calf.
>
> > > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's not a myth- it's a fact. One you don't like along with
> > > zillions
> > > > > > > of others. And the rich do create opportunities for others. There
> > > are
> > > > > > > misers, of course, but the poor can also be miserly. Let's get our
> > > > > > > moral judgements on a realistic plane as human nature has its good
> > > and
> > > > > > > bad points in all economic
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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Re: Mind's Eye What to do about the rich?

liked the poem,,  with have to copy it on my phone..

interesting way of putting if,,,  when you think about it the banksters are the true welfare queens of society, only they do excessive harm.   there is  a lot to say only it would be finger pointing,,  and finger pointing tells me I am at fault, probably in what I have failed to do...

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 7:28 AM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not sure the Papacy ever owned the dissolved monasteries rigs,
though the process did fund about 30 ships.  A hundred years later we
were floating joint stock companies to attack Spain - a failed Drake-
Norris expedition being the first (£80K only returning £30K in
plunder).  The Royal Navy comes much later with the Act of Union
(1707) and it's around then money was raised by the Bank of England.
I would have fancied a maritime Robin Hood raid on the Vatican myself.
I don't see this rich thing as about class - it's more to do with
social structuring through 'money as power' - as a famous poem stated,
there's no point in changing the rulers.
 THE GREAT DAY (W.B. Yeats in Montague 1974:239)

Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
A beggar on horseback lashes a beggar on foot.
Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
The beggars have changed places, but the lash goes on.

Not only do we have to get rid of the rich, we need to ensure no new
group forms - this was the idea of classical economics - to remove the
drain of economic rents on production.  All the current fuss is
because we failed to do this - nearly all the complaints about welfare
drains to the poor and so on are irrelevant.  The welfare queens are
the banks.

The obvious thing is that we are being told, after massive increases
in technology and productivity, we are worse off.  On preference I'd
want no part in the idiot system but it's hard to keep wolves from the
door without taking the establishment mark - unless you luck in to
something.  Tudor history help much when you worked at the S & L rigs?
(in the same way my quantum chemistry didn't when teaching bankers) -
I have a feeling we may discover how useless the banksters have really
been this year.

On 29 Mar, 21:23, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also remember how the german currency went to worthless also.. I am
> thinking about what the man said abou the fiction of currency
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:54 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Spot on on Lagarde rigs.  Her flat was raided in a criminal enquiry.
> >  She may have had a role in a dodgy French arms' deal with Pakistan
> > where bribes were kicked back to fund the Franco-GOP candidate in a
> > presidential election.  I can remember playing musical chairs as a kid
> > - I liked the running about and bumping into girls (this was the other
> > way round) but had no clue the idea was not to be left standing,
> > wondering why deviant adults kept stealing the chairs.  I submit the
> > long adult version with child replaced by gawping scientist.
>
> > It is impossible to apply hard science to these issues. I do sometimes
> > try to think as a scientist without knowledge of economics – difficult
> > as I teach the subject in business context. I always find, in this
> > thought experiment, that I just would not start with concepts from
> > economics. A key finding in 'anthropological archaeology' is that the
> > lives of a certain class of people got worse with our turn to
> > agriculture – something we might call 'broken back syndrome amongst
> > the sod turners'. A book of examples later, I conclude the problem
> > with real-world economics – the theories-in-action as opposed to
> > espoused – is that it has no way of fairly organising work and reward
> > against such ideals we might cherish like real democracy and proper
> > guardianship of the planet. This no doubt looks like naive thinking. I
> > then find myself thinking about how we organise such matters as 'a
> > trip to Mars' (Newton, Einstein, the 3-body problem, moving space and
> > down to stuff like the crew having to line (with proper hygiene) the
> > craft with their excrement to protect against 'space weather'. Lots of
> > other complex systems flow – the arms' race of co-evolution, combating
> > Lyme's disease, parasitism as the most common lifestyle – and I find
> > myself questioning why I an feel some much more competent as a
> > scientist than economist or increasingly disaffected cog in the
> > political machine.
> > Popper once pointed out that Freud and Marx could not be scientific
> > because if you went against the theories you were immediately in
> > denial or false-consciousness. As we repeatedly see "economics"
> > destroy the potential of most ordinary lives (and those of the few
> > through hedonism in a libidinal economy) we are told it is because we
> > just won't engage in real free markets – the neoclassic form of the
> > denial-false-consciousness routine.
> > I'm less inclined to worry who is next to go under as a country in the
> > great depression (I guess Luxembourg, Switzerland, UK – though all
> > bets are off if the USD goes down) – but on how and why we are in
> > thrall to a mad control fraud that keeps on failing. Invited on a
> > space ship to Mars built by economists I would simply wish the crew
> > godspeed and utter a silent atheist prayer, noting that oars are an
> > unlikely propulsion system. If the crew were Critical Theorists I'd
> > want to save, I'd be happy in the thought none of them could row.
> > Deep down we seem scared of the idea of a world of people with enough
> > "money and security" to be able to tell power they will only work for
> > "things and a quality of life" they want. I have instant reservations
> > about this state myself as a manager and through experience of free-
> > loading and the dire trivia most people "want" – from plastic crap,
> > neat mobile phones to Saudi princes raiding Syrian refugee camps for
> > wives. Nonetheless, with much of 'Robot Heaven' with us in principle
> > and some practice, the lack of modern thought experiments (such as
> > what place Calvinist work ethic would have in 100% Robot Heaven – how
> > could we morally keep people poor when machines do all the work etc?)
> > and repeated fetish concerns with homilies from the 18th century
> > leaves me cold.
>
> > The current model seems no better than handing over bags of electronic
> > cash to people who trouser it and at most engage in acts of charity
> > similar to pouring slops over a medieval monastery wall. In the UK we
> > have a Chancellor so smart he has just created a British Fanny Mae/
> > Freddy Mac! As one country after another faces becoming Cyprus (by the
> > end of next week we will be discovering we don't know the half of that
> > – note three old-fogey judges are already rostered for the cover-up)
> > we have no politics of lancing the banking boil generally and
> > production-based (responsible type) schemes for people to work their
> > way out of the mess without seeing the toil go to paying off bank
> > debts.
>
> > I agree with Allan that all this is really about the rich stealing.
> >  What we lack is a conception of a fairer society that makes sense of
> > what people would be in it.  I share rigs' concerns with the 'ash-grey
> > uniform of equality' and big government, but we can at least dream up
> > something in which this would not come about.  "They" certainly seem
> > to be putting the wind up us - making us feel money in the bank may as
> > well be hidden about the house - yet somewhere we seem to have
> > forgotten how quickly economies can recover as Germany and Japan did
> > after WW2.
>
> > On 29 Mar, 14:39, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > henry the 8th was all about divorce..    So it is okay to steal what is
> > > freely given to the church and use it to line you pockets or royal
> > > treasury..   what you are saying is it is okay to steal as long as you
> > can
> > > blame others for your wrong doing..  there is a great litany of excuses
> > the
> > > rich use for stealing ...   wonder if these excuses work with God as you
> > > understand him..
>
> > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:04 PM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > The wealth and lands of the Church were part of papal wealth. The
> > > > royal treasury was empty. Yes- the British navy took off under the
> > > > Tudors. The divorces came later along with his "solutions". (I did
> > > > take a 2 quarter course in Tudor history but request some slack for
> > > > facts.) One could also point to the later Enclosure act that ended the
> > > > common lands and set up the British aristocracy leading to slum-cities
> > > > and the ills of the Industrial Revolution. It's musical chairs. The
> > > > greedy still create their own enviornment but change the nouns and
> > > > verbs - they still need power to attain their ends: politics or wars.
>
> > > > On Mar 29, 3:30 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Rigsy  Henry the 8th got his navy on the backs of the poor.. not the
> > > > > Papacy .. all he did was destroy a bunch of monasteries.. but there
> > > > > was never enough money there to fiance his navy.. get real..  stole
> > > > > from church because they would not let him have his way with
> > > > > divorces..  how many did he go through either by divorce or killing
> > > > > them.. one thing for sure he is no hero..  more of a cowering thief.
>
> > > > > the greedy created their own environmental and fears and then created
> > > > > and taught people to fulfill their fears  so they can scream they are
> > > > > right and point fingers.. all signs  of the cult of the golden calf.
>
> > > > > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:04 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > It's not a myth- it's a fact. One you don't like along with
> > zillions
> > > > > > of others. And the rich do create opportunities for others. There
> > are
> > > > > > misers, of course, but the poor can also be miserly. Let's get our
> > > > > > moral judgements on a realistic plane as human nature has its good
> > and
> > > > > > bad points in all economic spheres. The main slavers were Arabs,
> > > > > > Africans and nations with a robust shipping trade plus colonizing
> > > > > > nations needing human labor prior to machines- though wages may be
> > > > > > argued as another form of enslavement. We are hooked into a
> > perpetual
> > > > > > game of economic musical chairs; a class is ousted and the ousters
> > > > > > take on the same qualities of the ousteed. Some do not define
> > > > > > themselves by money or stuff- even if they have them.//The Cypus
> > event
> > > > > > of the week is deja vu a la GM,etc. Lagarde reminds me of a former
> > > > > > Sacred Heart nun- but no matter. Don't underestimate the lure of
> > greed
> > > > > > fueled by envy- again, back to the Garden of Eden.// I have been
> > > > > > watching the sun melt the ice- it's going well on the north side
> > but
> > > > > > had the roofer out today and he will install a heat wire this
> > summer
> > > > > > so I don't have to worry each spring. Also cooking a lot. Company
> > for
> > > > > > Easter.//How do you think Henry VIII got his navy???By robbing the
> > > > > > Papacy!!! :-)
>
> > > > > > On Mar 12, 8:42 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> The big myth is that rich people have worked hard for their
> > wealth and
> > > > > >> deserve it (pace rigs).  Even the slavers were paid off in huge
> > > > > >> amounts and one can trace such money to the present day - much the
> > > > > >> same true of Nazi businesses.  We are hooked into a control fraud.
>
> > > > > >> On Mar 11, 8:35 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> > I know what you mean Neil,,  Seems that change is starting..
> >  the
> > > > > >> > Doctors over here started a web page against tobacco.. and they
> > are
> > > > > >> > revealing those legislator that are being influenced by the
> > tobacco
> > > > > >> > lobby..  it seems like light is beginning shine in the
> > darkness..
> > > > > >> > I support the Light.
>
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 2:45 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
>

> ...
>
> read more »

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 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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Re: Mind's Eye Re: Good and bad

You took singing lessons in Germany Neil? did you get a chance to sing some of Wagner's operas? ;o0

On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 11:52 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:

New Shades of Black sort of works for what I meant to write.  We
scientists never got on with grammar, having decided explosions and
light effects much more interesting than the seduction of language and
the aphoristic path to French homosexuals or novels meant for girls.
To us sentences were meaningless enough, probably some sort of mating
talk we would eventually have to learn to predicate ourselves with
subjects of the wider form of life we hoped to sleep with whilst
awake.  Someone forgot to tell Shakespeare we prefer quiet and thus
one has to put up with a lot of noise before the rest belatedly
acknowledged and consigned to silence by the copy-scribe Wittgenstein
whilst in traction.

What is the decision of the cut-off thumb rigs?  The one next to one
hand clapping.  What fuggy muggy logic behind the pub door lures from
the temptation of an affair with Karenina otherwise a necessity in not
getting out enough?  Translation bitter gnädiges Fräulein lest I lapse
to that most logically structured modern language eliminating space
grammar of verylongwordsruntogether and verbs inconveniently placed so
that one after the event what's going on knows.  Or assume I have gone
mad reading Goethe during an opera by Wagner.  There is no difference
without differance I was told, French cafe with poor folk music poor
folk might have feigned attention of to stay warm as hinterland no
desired fuggymug in Paris over beer designed for Pelicans with an old
Jewish pied noire clinking Glas because his son had disowned him for
secrets said in public.

I must remember word order in German is more flexible than in English
when I study for my certificates in
Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz.  You
just have to know a compound as long as that concerns or deserves
butchery!  Gabby and I (now there's a title for a dreadful sitcom) may
share Old Saxon or earlier German grass-porridge growing invaders of
Scotland ancestry.  Genes may be better proof than attempting to
construct the common language before my Scot's tendency to bad
poetics, the lady's dark-eye observation code and the smile that will
come on knowledge my grandson has eaten the last of the biscuits.

On Mar 29, 12:22 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Funny. I was just musing that social media is related to the thumbs up/
> down of the Colosseum of ancient Rome! :-)
>
> On Mar 29, 6:28 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Oh, the credits for pointing out the possibility/likelihood of being the
> > subject/object of distortions go to Rigs! Omitting the predicate might have
> > evoked the feeling you could have missed something, but no, you're right,
> > there was no point.
>
> > The "Oh shit!" pedagogic method is called "black pedagogy", not to be
> > mistaken with "black humor", or with the connections to the past that Rigs
> > draws.
>
> > Hey Neil, how about "New Shades Of Black" as a book title for the book I
> > have pre-ordered from you? Ok, I admit, I'm not really waiting, I have
> > already started reading. :)
>
> > 2013/3/28 James <ashkas...@gmail.com>
>
> > > One approach that I've rarely caught in a class is a teacher taking a no
> > > BS approach to the material. It seems useful to have a frank historical
> > > perspective on what motivates the theories or breaches the old paradigms,
> > > perhaps a creative excursion into cultural universals. Maybe picking a few
> > > wacky examples of applied economics and let them get a good laugh, then
> > > show parallels with their culture to get them thinking.
>
> > > One example is ancient civilizations using up natural resources, then
> > > looking over the forecasted impact of the US aquifers bottoming out.
> > > Suddenly the conservationists don't sound as alarmist, is there a word for
> > > the "Oh shit!" pedagogic method? No offense but economics sounds boring in
> > > itself, but your thoughts here make it sound interesting. Are you allowed
> > > to hint to the class when you think something is little more than an
> > > academic publishing circle jerk?
>
> > > Hmm, what you've said about 'distorting filters' has me wondering if I
> > > missed gabby's point. You lost a book and I was born.. :D
>
> > > On 3/27/2013 7:28 PM, archytas wrote:
>
> > >> I've just read a book that says neo-classical economics is just an
> > >> ideology forced down our throats by the vile rich - actually the whole
> > >> book probably says less than that as the authors won't call a spade a
> > >> spade.  Gabby seems to have read he book too.  It came 30 years too
> > >> late.  I could have missed all those research methods classes and
> > >> worried less about feeling economics was a load of junk that could
> > >> only make sense to Monty Python's dead Norwegian Blue parrot.  Perhaps
> > >> economists have just discovered the archive of my lecture notes, lost
> > >> on a bus in Lancaster in 1983?  I seem to remember they advocated
> > >> swapping one set of distorting filters for another and mentioning the
> > >> term paradigm a lot.  Big data was barred as positivist - a term I
> > >> loosely translated as 'guileless scientist like you Neil'. You had to
> > >> call data 'capta' to be in with the crowd that mistakenly thought it
> > >> was the in crowd, socially constructed facts from thin air I
> > >> interpreted as a source for green hydrocarbon production and taught me
> > >> to spell phenomenological.
>
> > >> On Mar 25, 10:02 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>
> > >>> 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
>
> > >>>  I do not think that we lie to our self so much as that we only see/hear
> > >>>> what we want to see/hear. Also we tend to say what we think the other
> > >>>> persons wants to hear or say things to hurt other people.
> > >>>> On Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:46:03 AM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> > >>>>> I am more interested in why we lie to ourselves, suppress reality and
> > >>>>> snarl logic in our brains. There are life and death moments of
> > >>>>> survival, I suppose, but much of our potential is engineered by family
> > >>>>> and culture in order to achieve some sort of control and order. Even
> > >>>>> rebels are often little more than a reaction. Pretense and etiquette
> > >>>>> are often the same thing.//I must have "lost" my thought re "big
> > >>>>> data"/"Big Daddy? as an organizer of human knowledge versus the
> > >>>>> present scatterings and specialties.// Yes- I agree most have a gut
> > >>>>> reaction- but so do other life forms- it's a survival mechanism. But
> > >>>>> it can be distorted.
> > >>>>> On Mar 24, 4:12 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>>>> Faked enthusiasm is as easy to spot as fake love. It is like a built
> > >>>>>> in
> > >>>>>> like a lie detector that god created us with. Sounds like a good way
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>> detect lying on the internet. You can call it "god" instead of "big
> > >>>>>> brother".
> > >>>>>> On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:08:39 PM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
> > >>>>>> .....................
>
> > >>>>>>> Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy - gist at
> > >>>>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/****science/2013/feb/24/**<http://www.guardian.co.uk/**science/2013/feb/24/**>
>
> > >>>>>> scientists-attacked-ove.<http:**//www.guardian.co.uk/science/**
> > >>>>> 2013/feb/24/scientists-**attacked-ove<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove>
> > >>>>> .>..
>
> > >>>>>> I agree with rigs that the term is unfortunate.
> > >>>>>>> ........but I could feign 'enthusiasm' ..
> > >>>>>>> ........' to detect resistance!  Even this
> > >>>>>>> .....no employees dumb enough to support
> > >>>>>>> excellence, ......
> > >>>>>>> if we spent out time pointing such devices at
> > >>>>>>> each other though rigs!  Watch out for the first one minute dating
> > >>>>>>> agency providing such!  Arghh" .
> > >>>>>>> On Mar 22, 1:06 pm, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>>> Junk is an unfortunate adjective- it sounds too random. My guess is
> > >>>>>>>> that further selection takes place in this area which selects the
> > >>>>>>>> strongest marker- or whatever it's called- such in the color of
>
> > >>>>>>> eyes,
>
> > >>>>>> hair, and other characteristics. There are also generational skips
>
> > >>>>>>> in
>
> > >>>>>> play. I have noted other strange echoes of a missing parent such as
> > >>>>>>>> the style of laughter which is a surprise and so many other
> > >>>>>>>> recognitions. At any rate, we are just beginning to sort through
>
> > >>>>>>> the
>
> > >>>>>> data in this one area as in others- I think it is called "big data"
> > >>>>>>>> which will overcome the religious notion of "sins of the father"
>
> > >>>>>>> stuff
>
> > >>>>>> as well as curses and fate and will hopefully allow a more rational
> > >>>>>>>> and postive approach/life choices for each unique individual. But
>
> > >>>>>>> it
>
> > >>>>>> will also cause mischief.
> > >>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 5:16 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>>>> Not all DNA code for protein. We have non coding DNA called "junk
>
> > >>>>>>>> DNA"
>
> > >>>>>> that
>
> > >>>>>>>> ensure we are all unique. While normal DNA codes for protein to
>
> > >>>>>>>> make,
>
> > >>>>>> for
>
> > >>>>>>>> example a "nose", junk DNA ensures that we grow a nose that
>
> > >>>>>>>> "looks"
>
> > >>>>>> like a
>
> > >>>>>>>> mixture of our father`s and our mother`s nose.
> > >>>>>>>>> On Friday, March 22, 2013 12:36:39 AM UTC+1, Ash wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> My thoughts didn't include "junk DNA", my thinking on such
>
> > >>>>>>>>> terms are
>
> > >>>>>> mixed in that some genes may not be useful or represent just
>
> > >>>>>>>>> another
>
> > >>>>>> failure point, but also that the supposed junk in one set of
> > >>>>>>>>>> circumstances may prove quite beneficial in others like a
>
> > >>>>>>>>> backup, an
>
> > >>>>>> alternate development chain or complex interdependencies we
>
> > >>>>>>>>> haven't
>
> > >>>>>> observed yet. You may have a connection in mind I haven't
>
> > >>>>>>>>> gleaned.
>
> > >>>>>> Developing the market sounds similar but I am trying to root
>
> > >>>>>>>>> out an
>
> > >>>>>> aspect of this that doesn't require jumping to a premature
>
> > >>>>>>>>> conclusion,
>
> > >>>>>>>> such as in 'intelligent design', materialism, rigid ontologies
>
> > >>>>>>>>> or
>
> > >>>>>> realism. Thanks for helping me explore here gabby, lets hope
>
> > >>>>>>>>> some
>
> > >>>>>> form
>
> > >>>>>>>> emerges in expression. :)
> > >>>>>>>>>> On 3/21/2013 3:57 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Now that sounds more like you. :)
> > >>>>>>>>>>> What you are describing or asking I now
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> understand/interpret/hear
>
> > >>>>>> in
>
> > >>>>>>>> terms of what I know about what they are trying to find out
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> about
>
> > >>>>>> "junk DNA". Its purpose/function/added value. As for what you
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> describe
>
> > >>>>>>>> as another way, I know/experience/see this in what the
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> companies
>
> > >>>>>> describe as "developing the market". We are still on topic,
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> aren't
>
> > >>>>>> we?
>
> > >>>>>>>> 2013/3/21 James <ashk...@gmail.com <javascript:> <mailto:
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> ashk...@gmail.com <javascript:>>>
>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>      I have a feeling you are being charitable with me gabby
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> (cringe).
>
> > >>>>>>>>      What you say makes sense, and should add that the intent
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I
>
> > >>>>>> refer
>
> > >>>>>>>>      to is in excess of that needed for mere gene survival
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> fitness.
>
> > >>>>>> In
>
> > >>>>>>>>      that sense I consider the adaptations as simulations and
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> the
>
> > >>>>>>      excess as breaking the barriers of meta-simulation, or in
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> another
>
> > >>>>>>>>      way, not just running within time but operating on it by
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> taking
>
> > >>>>>>>>      advantage of the rules and finding ways to bend them. Now
>
> > >>>>>>>>>> it
>
> > >>>>>> is my
>
> > >>>>>>>>      turn to ask, does that make sense [to anyone]?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>      On 3/20/2013 3:01 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>          I don't know if this is good or
>

> ...
>
> read more »

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|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

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