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On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM, archytas <nwterry@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-when-debt-more-important-people-system-evil
This is the moral argument as I see it.
> ...
On Feb 17, 4:17 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whatever we say in respect of these problems we tend to imagine false
> hopes without dealing with them. Can we really imagine, given
> history, that a bunch of bureaucrats making decisions must be better
> than a business approach, that the public sector must be better than
> private enterprise or any of the reverses? State capitalism is a big
> thing and doing at least as well as private conglomerates (see the
> current Economist). These ideologies have much in common and a
> notable lack of common control and have rich and powerful people
> running them.
> I suspect the Greeks need the same help as the rest of us - a new work-
> reward ethic of a living wage from all jobs and finance as a utility.
> This apparently modest statement is "revolutionary".
>
> On Feb 17, 3:06 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > I'm not sure science does move so slowly Vam - but I certainly feel
> > the same frustration. Perhaps the most amazing thing in the current
> > 'debate' on economic plight is that the obvious issue is that a tiny
> > rich hold ever increasing bags of swag whilst blaming everyone else
> > for the lack of money! This has been particularly true in Greece.
> > There's a good argument that capital is currently idle - companies
> > are sitting on much more cash than usual.
> > On Vam's point on science being too slow I'd take the view that the
> > problem is most people can't cope with its world-view, and deep in
> > that are issues that people can't cope with more than one, conflate
> > this with individuality and protect it at all costs. The despair for
> > me is that I see all kinds of iniquity and there is rarely much I can
> > do. My sense of this is that we fail to address power issues at all
> > levels and these would be key to real change. What we should be
> > looking for is a system of free people who can organise their work for
> > what is needed and this is a moral issue of legitimation.
> > What I would look at in the first place are those work systems in
> > which nearly all the participants cannot work their way to decent,
> > self-sustaining community. Examples would include Indian rural
> > farming where the only 'way out' is suicide (a quarter of a million in
> > ten years), Gary Indiana and swathes of unemployment everywhere. I
> > cannot believe wages have to be linked to an endless and immoral
> > search to doing them down for the purpose of competitive advantage -
> > or that consumption is any kind of model for economics when the planet
> > can't take it. The body can't take it either when on looks at how
> > unhealthy we get.
>
> > What the rich are currently doing is seeking ownership of real assets
> > in order to rent them out to the rest of us. The model is ostensibly
> > more complex than money-lending in rural India, but actually much the
> > same. The Greeks are supposed to put up with foreign ownership of
> > their soil and then work their way out of the mess - a clear case of
> > economics as war by other means.
>
> > Any analysis will show that liquidity has been taken out of our
> > communities (not long ago the bottom half of UK and US people had 14%
> > of liquid assets we can think of as cash - this is down to 1%) and
> > wages have spiralled down - without welfare (more than 50% get some)
> > we'd have to work for less than the Chinese. Many who object to
> > welfare are in receipt of it! The situation is so stupid one finds
> > explanations like Laffer Curves to justify tax dodging by big
> > companies are seriously entertained and evidence they are dud ignored.
> > Yet volunteer to put one's shoulder to the wheel and one can find no
> > place to put the effort in - certainly not for fair reward. We have
> > debates on whether bankers are worth vast bonuses - with no
> > consideration that such payments enslave unnamed others over
> > generations and without questions on why vast increases in
> > productivity are not shared in general living standards and
> > opportunity. This is a moral shambles (a term originating in English
> > from 'butcher's yard').
>
> > To make money, even US university alumni funds are invested in
> > 'vulture funds' with Africans killed or turfed off land - much as my
> > fellow Scots in the Enclosures. Tax not paid in order for companies
> > (and a few individuals) to accumulate it is at the heart of the mess.
> > No one should believe this is just a Greek matter. One can make the
> > case that what's going on is good money (social capital) being chased
> > out by bad.
>
> > The Greeks hate the Turks.
>
> > On Feb 17, 2:42 pm, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I started thinking about the Paris Commune but they left the banks
> > > alone. :-) //One's rather short life span probably contributes to our
> > > fuzzy comprehension along with a lack of maturity/independence when
> > > important choices are made. Hopefully, the "list" will be balanced in
> > > review- to see our errors as well as our successes. Also- some "also
> > > serve who only stand and wait"- John Milton.
>
> > > On Feb 16, 10:42 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > This was great discussion, spot on ! Let me add some on morals...
>
> > > > Morals are an individual function that serves " the " social
> > > > responsibility.
> > > > But the individual can be moral, have the reason to be moral,
> > > > and continue to be moral, ONLY to the extent he knows
> > > > AND REMEMBERS the " cause and effect " facts,
> > > > their value for himself and humanity... the truths.
>
> > > > Because, time separates the cause and effect. Most science... physics,
> > > > chemistry, biology, medicine... the knowledge of it is gleaned from
> > > > what is happening before our eyes, or over days and months, even
> > > > years. But that isn't all, is in fact horribly deficient, too little
> > > > to enable us to make a choice, act or institute.
>
> > > > It takes decades and centuries for the most crucial effects to emerge,
> > > > in very inscrutable but inevitable ways.
>
> > > > So, science keeps contradicting, revising, restating, re-defining... a
> > > > hailed panacea is declared harmful 20 - 30 years later... all manner
> > > > of very scientific "logic" is then publicised, gets instituted, purely
> > > > to raise money and concentrate power, establish business networks that
> > > > involve millions of people and spew economic funda that determine
> > > > State policies. Today, over US $400 billion is consumed in drugs that
> > > > are psychotropic ! The weapons industry in the West - the massive
> > > > massive motha fkg industry - is a case in point, of State and
> > > > Economic priorities set on such logic supported by very what reputed
> > > > strategic research institutions and highly honourable think tanks.
>
> > > > I am making a case for good, old memory, dear. Since morality is an
> > > > individual function, though a social imperative, it is memory of our
> > > > knowledge of " Being ", of cause and effect, of the knowledge we have
> > > > of ourself, of our behaviour, thought and attitude, discovered
> > > > knowledge about things and beings, of what is undesirable and should
> > > > be avoided or prevented, of what is desirable and should valued,
> > > > cultivated and persist with.
>
> > > > If we knew and remembered history, in all its details going back to
> > > > individual function, we'd know what is best for us and humanity.
>
> > > > But do not write history in that manner... we report date and events,
> > > > and gross happenings and developments, never the individuals' act,
> > > > intent and choices, their reasons, logic and perceptions, purposes and
> > > > ambitions, and prevailing social thought and beliefs going back to
> > > > individuals' function... ambitions, manipulations and beliefs,
>
> > > > The more we know and remember, the more valid will be our knowledge,
> > > > in truth, of value and values that hold on longer time scale.
>
> > > > On Feb 17, 8:19 am, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I read this plus comments. I didn't understand all of the economics.
> > > > > What about those people who are hiding money at home? What if the
> > > > > currency is changed- didn't the US demand that silver certificates and
> > > > > gold coins be turned in? Anyway- you are right and I was harsh and
> > > > > hasty.// Doesn't our government own our debt ultimately rather than
> > > > > the banks via laws and regulations. As far as I know Wall Street and
> > > > > the banks are operating within granted privileges- taxes are set by
> > > > > law- even the Congress could benefit from insider trades till their
> > > > > recent bill. Anyway, the Greek carpenter's story was sad and bleak. I
> > > > > hope Greece defaults- I think- but does not rejoin the new Ottoman
> > > > > Empire.//I wonder what I will do when the US collapses? Probably
> > > > > hitchhike to one of my sons...//Yes- it does boil down to values and
> > > > > morals- our modern world is psychotic.
>
> > > > > On Feb 16, 5:14 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I'd say this is similar to what I found on my visit to Piraeus -http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02/austerity-policy-destroying-gr...
> > > > > > - and the US is now issuing more debt than it takes in as taxes.
> > > > > > We can reorganise and should do this by taking down the rich and the
> > > > > > debt they 'own'.
>
> > > > > > On Feb 16, 11:08 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Would it were so rigsy. A fairly standard review of what's been
> > > > > > > happening in finance can be found here -http://www.cfainstitute.org/learning/products/publications/rf/Pages/r...
> > > > > > > - from the investment managers' professional body. Many ordinary
> > > > > > > people who put the toil in, including Greeks working two jobs, are
> > > > > > > discovering what they thought their hard work has earned is worth
> > > > > > > nothing. These are people who thought they were being self-
> > > > > > > sufficient. I
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