Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

I wasn't clear. I was thinking about new ideas and inventions which
made older ideas and inventions obsolete or mere stepping stones to a
greater truth. Science seems more open to changes and advances for the
most part though Darwin had a struggle but that was because he stepped
into religious territory which might mean that we are more open to
change when it does not involve emotions and beliefs versus
demonstrable facts.

On Oct 9, 9:08 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It will still be more clever than the rest !
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 5:04:27 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > Until the next cleverest man/woman comes along! :-)
>
> > On Oct 8, 5:56 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > " Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to
> > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for specific
> > > acts or purposes ... "
>
> > > If a machine is programmed by the cleverest man,
>
> > > it would not be ' only ' as clever as it has been programmed
>
> > > but it would be more clever than every other man on the planet !
>
> > > On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:01:02 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > And certain ants have also figured out how to enter the honey bee as a
> > > > parasite which has an ominous impact on pollination. Species pick up
> > > > their behaviors from their groups- some are more dedicated- patterns
> > > > can be disrupted.// Anyway, aren't you equating worth with money/
> > > > salary?//Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to
> > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for specific
> > > > acts or purposes but still short of general intelligence, insight and
> > > > adaptation.// Old age is not necessarily "lousey" except the final
> > > > chapter is death and certain goals were not realized or possible. Hard
> > > > work/age does not create arthritis- that is a myth. The 12 year old
> > > > across the street has arthritis and started some exercise for
> > > > violinists.
>
> > > > On Oct 7, 9:51 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move to
> > farming
> > > > > from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for those who
> > > > > cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work).  The obvious
> > issue
> > > > > for present society concerns the dubious status of our work and
> > life-
> > > > > style ideologies.    Slave-making ants kill the adults in their host
> > > > > ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they become
> > > > > adult by making them raise their own brood.  Even in enslaved ant
> > > > > consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to the wider
> > > > > collective.  Humans have a sad history of enslavement and debt
> > > > > peonage.
> > > > > Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on offer
> > for
> > > > > 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any!  The Chinese
> > refer
> > > > > to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant People'.
> >  Some
> > > > > of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used to note
> > > > > the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew as work
> > > > > and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme).  My own
> > > > > feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that James
> > > > > suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining subjects
> > > > > designed in our dubious past teach anything other than control
> > fraud.
> > > > > Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot.
> > > > > Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most people
> > > > > (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role once I
> > clear
> > > > > up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because no human
> > > > > can encompass the data loads.  Allan and I share problems with our
> > > > > 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of year to
> > have
> > > > > flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - soon my
> > > > > friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to
> > > > > Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat.  We have now done this
> > > > > experimentally with some tinkering.
> > > > > Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to predict the
> > > > > future - that is its purpose is for this.  We find it in non-human
> > > > > life-forms too.  This is related to a general science-view of why a
> > > > > system would invest in the resources to have memory at all.  I'll
> > > > > leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus ants
> > > > > raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire rebellion'?
>
> > > > > On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >  From another perspective one might like to appreciate the role
> > (or a
> > > > > > role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is a world
> > with
> > > > > > meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a challenge to
> > > > undertake
> > > > > > exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or outside our
> > > > > > capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. These are
> > > > > > questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being led
> > becomes
> > > > too
> > > > > > great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that as does
> > the
> > > > > > diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language, corrupting
> > as in
> > > > > > coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared
> > language
> > > > and
> > > > > > meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can present a
> > > > > > struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what impetus
> > would
> > > > > > there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and where,
> > I've
> > > > > > found. That is in part a few features of what I am exploring
> > > > currently,
> > > > > > among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for sharing
> > what
> > > > > > you gather. :)
>
> > > > > > On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical concept of
> > > > things
> > > > > > > and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the body as
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > > more than a means of existing in this physical world.  this
> > seems to
> > > > be
> > > > > > > changing the perspective on what is conceived as reality.
> > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >     We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future
> > > > possibilities
> > > > > > >     are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I consider a
> > > > consequence
> > > > > > >     of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left
> > unchecked
> > > > can
> > > > > > >     be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as I can
> > tell
> > > > we
> > > > > > >     are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and hold on as
> > long
> > > > as
> > > > > > >     possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is that we
> > can
> > > > do
> > > > > > >     little to force change but as facilitators we can pursue
> > > > strategic
> > > > > > >     challenges that will open those opportunities.
>
> > > > > > >     If I said that in 10 years the technology should be
> > accessible
> > > > to
> > > > > > >     refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into electricity at
> > 80+
> > > > > > >     conversion efficiency from common household materials in
> > your
> > > > > > >     average (modern) garage there is no shortage of engineers
> > that
> > > > would
> > > > > > >     call me a quack. If I said that you could do it today with
> > > > moderate
> > > > > > >     access to materials refining equipment, with a net generated
> > > > income
> > > > > > >     over the winter months, and it could be boosted by running a
> > > > > > >     greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely nuts. SOFC,
> > > > steam
> > > > > > >     reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are a few
> > terms
> > > > for
> > > > > > >     that type of nut.
>
> > > > > > >     I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in our
> > social
> > > > and
> > > > > > >     political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to be able
> > to
> > > > > > >     redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, but we
> > > > insist
> > > > > > >     that primitive human traits are superior and sacrosanct.
>
> > > > > > >     Navigating awkward transitions, that is what I think we are
> > > > doing
> > > > > > >     (not necessarily excellently, but making progress). Still
> > > > passin'
> > > > > > >     the buck here, your turn. Sorry for no answer Archy, too bad
> > > > > > >     telepathy isn't an option because the picture is clear but I
> > > > just
> > > > > > >     don't trust the words yet.
>
> > > > > > >     On 10/4/2012 5:14 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>
> > > > > > >         That's right. Us end consumers of your brilliant ideas
> > need
> > > > time to
> > > > > > >         consume your complex theories in simple practice for you
> > to
> > > > see
> > > > > > >         where
> > > > > > >         we fail to get your idea for you to better educate and
> > > > motivate
> > > > > > >         us. :p
>
> > > > > > >         On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 4:25 AM, James<
> > ashkas...@gmail.com
> > > > > > >         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>  wrote:
>
> > > > > > >             I was hoping we could evolve sociologically in step
> > with
> > > > > > >             technology, that
> > > > > > >             implies an intelligent management infrastructure
> > that
> > > > > > >             educates and motivates
> > > > > > >             free agents to make contributions to the works of
> > > > humanity.
> > > > > > >             Suitably
> > > > > > >             educated in the workings of organisms (especially
> > how
> > > > they
> > > > > > >             relate and
> > > > > > >             compare to man), the arts, sciences, elimination of
> > > > > > >             destitution, poverty,
> > > > > > >             mental illnesses, the list goes on.. It requires
> > that we
> > > > > > >             manage things
> > > > > > >             intelligently, learn from mistakes and move forward.
> > If
> > > > this
>
> ...
>
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