Re: Mind's Eye thought experiments

Not sure if religion, cults, tribal mischief did not have the same
effect Vam. Consider the countless wars, for instance. But I think
western man has turn the Age of Machines into a new religion and one
could draw many parallels- and has, via artists and authors. Anyway,
after spending way too much time finding a new niche for my morning
coffee maker before my daughter and two grand-daughters come for the
Xmas holidays (!), I have certainly racked up the equivalent of a
novena! BTW, a couple of years ago I noticed my feet were slightly
stiff in the morning and I worried that my flight to the kitchen for a
mug of coffee could be perilous so I bought one of those small coffee
makers for the upstairs and now include a muffin- just to rev up the
joints before I seize the day. :-) Anyway, this might be a good idea
for any who need to warm/rev up. (This is my machine confession.) On
the other hand, I have been negotiating with the Divine for a new lawn/
snow guy and I am on the brink of success! lol

On Oct 11, 6:28 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bingo ! * sounding the drums *
>
> But what gives it the merit also renders science blind to much that is
> essential to our humanity, which are abstract and non-material ... beauty,
> ethics, morals, truth, compassion, happiness, love, etc.
>
> Albert Einstein expressed is eloquently ... as have several others.
>
> There has been much since science overwhelmed us. But everytime it has
> served to delete a part or measure of our humanity, mankind has struck a
> blow at its own foot !
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 5:46:04 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > I wasn't clear. I was thinking about new ideas and inventions which
> > made older ideas and inventions obsolete or mere stepping stones to a
> > greater truth. Science seems more open to changes and advances for the
> > most part though Darwin had a struggle but that was because he stepped
> > into religious territory which might mean that we are more open to
> > change when it does not involve emotions and beliefs versus
> > demonstrable facts.
>
> > On Oct 9, 9:08 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > It will still be more clever than the rest !
>
> > > On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 5:04:27 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > Until the next cleverest man/woman comes along! :-)
>
> > > > On Oct 8, 5:56 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > " Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed to
> > > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for
> > specific
> > > > > acts or purposes ... "
>
> > > > > If a machine is programmed by the cleverest man,
>
> > > > > it would not be ' only ' as clever as it has been programmed
>
> > > > > but it would be more clever than every other man on the planet !
>
> > > > > On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:01:02 PM UTC+5:30, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> > > > > > And certain ants have also figured out how to enter the honey bee
> > as a
> > > > > > parasite which has an ominous impact on pollination. Species pick
> > up
> > > > > > their behaviors from their groups- some are more dedicated-
> > patterns
> > > > > > can be disrupted.// Anyway, aren't you equating worth with money/
> > > > > > salary?//Machines are only as clever as they have been programmed
> > to
> > > > > > be. In some cases that may mean smarter than some humans for
> > specific
> > > > > > acts or purposes but still short of general intelligence, insight
> > and
> > > > > > adaptation.// Old age is not necessarily "lousey" except the final
> > > > > > chapter is death and certain goals were not realized or possible.
> > Hard
> > > > > > work/age does not create arthritis- that is a myth. The 12 year
> > old
> > > > > > across the street has arthritis and started some exercise for
> > > > > > violinists.
>
> > > > > > On Oct 7, 9:51 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > The archaeological evidence is that such things as the move to
> > > > farming
> > > > > > > from hunter-gathering did not improve the human lot for those
> > who
> > > > > > > cleared and dug sod (arthritis etc. from the work).  The obvious
> > > > issue
> > > > > > > for present society concerns the dubious status of our work and
> > > > life-
> > > > > > > style ideologies.    Slave-making ants kill the adults in their
> > host
> > > > > > > ants and steal the 'eggs' in order to steal the work as they
> > become
> > > > > > > adult by making them raise their own brood.  Even in enslaved
> > ant
> > > > > > > consciousness something inspires 'rebellion' and 'duty' to the
> > wider
> > > > > > > collective.  Humans have a sad history of enslavement and debt
> > > > > > > peonage.
> > > > > > > Undergraduates can be heard every year bemoaning salaries on
> > offer
> > > > for
> > > > > > > 'all their hard work' - few of them have done any!  The Chinese
> > > > refer
> > > > > > > to their graduates who don't get the good jobs as 'Ant People'.
> > > >  Some
> > > > > > > of my old colleagues inside technological manufacturing used to
> > note
> > > > > > > the need for workers was disappearing faster than most knew as
> > work
> > > > > > > and skill is embodied in technology (an old marxist theme).  My
> > own
> > > > > > > feeling is that we have killed off much valuable stuff that
> > James
> > > > > > > suggests through the ejukation system - falsely imagining
> > subjects
> > > > > > > designed in our dubious past teach anything other than control
> > > > fraud.
> > > > > > > Even medical training involves a lot of unnecessary rot.
> > > > > > > Some of us think machines are better at 'thinking' than most
> > people
> > > > > > > (soon Gabby will be made redundant from her Gad-fly role once I
> > > > clear
> > > > > > > up a few teething problems with the bots!), partly because no
> > human
> > > > > > > can encompass the data loads.  Allan and I share problems with
> > our
> > > > > > > 'flash memory' - buzz, ping, PTSD etc. - (it's my time of year
> > to
> > > > have
> > > > > > > flash-backs to Northern Ireland) - getting old is lousy - soon
> > my
> > > > > > > friendly solid state world will move from Enlightenment to
> > > > > > > Entanglement as I stroke Schrodinger's cat.  We have now done
> > this
> > > > > > > experimentally with some tinkering.
> > > > > > > Memory is increasingly viewed as about our ability to predict
> > the
> > > > > > > future - that is its purpose is for this.  We find it in
> > non-human
> > > > > > > life-forms too.  This is related to a general science-view of
> > why a
> > > > > > > system would invest in the resources to have memory at all.
> >  I'll
> > > > > > > leave this babble with the question 'where do the Spartacus ants
> > > > > > > raised by the slavers get the memories that inspire rebellion'?
>
> > > > > > > On 6 Oct, 19:50, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >  From another perspective one might like to appreciate the
> > role
> > > > (or a
> > > > > > > > role) of life as within an integral spectrum. If there is a
> > world
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > meaning beyond our conceptions it would present a challenge to
> > > > > > undertake
> > > > > > > > exploration and discovery. Regardless of conception or outside
> > our
> > > > > > > > capacity we might be bound by greater rules in nature. These
> > are
> > > > > > > > questions I think that arise when the suspicion of being led
> > > > becomes
> > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > great to ignore, fear has a corrupting influence on that as
> > does
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > diverse symbols at our disposal provided by language,
> > corrupting
> > > > as in
> > > > > > > > coloring and distorting. But the tools of identity, shared
> > > > language
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > meanings can facilitate discovery. Internal motives can
> > present a
> > > > > > > > struggle for a clear picture, and yet without them what
> > impetus
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > there be? Context is amazingly significant, the when and
> > where,
> > > > I've
> > > > > > > > found. That is in part a few features of what I am exploring
> > > > > > currently,
> > > > > > > > among the jumble. This can be intimate stuff, thanks for
> > sharing
> > > > what
> > > > > > > > you gather. :)
>
> > > > > > > > On 10/5/2012 4:25 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Lately I have been trying to get out of this physical
> > concept of
> > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > and look at them from a souls to return to soul with the
> > body as
> > > > > > nothing
> > > > > > > > > more than a means of existing in this physical world.  this
> > > > seems to
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > changing the perspective on what is conceived as reality.
> > > > > > > > > Allan
>
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 5:50 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > >     We may be on the same page Gabby, my imagined future
> > > > > > possibilities
> > > > > > > > >     are still clouded by unknowns (to me). That I consider a
> > > > > > consequence
> > > > > > > > >     of mental bondage to current circumstances, and left
> > > > unchecked
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > >     be demoralizing to creative intelligence. As far as I
> > can
> > > > tell
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > >     are meant to invent solutions to challenges, and hold on
> > as
> > > > long
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > >     possible until the opportunity arises. My opinion is
> > that we
> > > > can
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > >     little to force change but as facilitators we can pursue
> > > > > > strategic
> > > > > > > > >     challenges that will open those opportunities.
>
> > > > > > > > >     If I said that in 10 years the technology should be
> > > > accessible
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > >     refine garbage, wood or any other fuel into electricity
> > at
> > > > 80+
> > > > > > > > >     conversion efficiency from common household materials in
> > > > your
> > > > > > > > >     average (modern) garage there is no shortage of
> > engineers
> > > > that
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > >     call me a quack. If I said that you could do it today
> > with
> > > > > > moderate
> > > > > > > > >     access to materials refining equipment, with a net
> > generated
> > > > > > income
> > > > > > > > >     over the winter months, and it could be boosted by
> > running a
> > > > > > > > >     greenhouse and indoor fishery I would be surely nuts.
> > SOFC,
> > > > > > steam
> > > > > > > > >     reforming, plasma reduction, pyrolytic reduction are a
> > few
> > > > terms
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >     that type of nut.
>
> > > > > > > > >     I think we are missing the spirit of engineering in our
> > > > social
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >     political dialogue. It could just be me.. we seem to be
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > >     redefine just about any kind of waste into an asset, but
> > we
> > > > > > insist
>
> ...
>
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